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  1. #1

    Default Instantaneous Power Measurements

    Does any one here have any experience with (or knowledge of) taking an instantaneous energy (power) measurement from one of these new inverter based wave form controlled power sources while it's welding? I've been told by some one at Miller that a Fluke model 345 meter is required.

    And where would this reading be taken from? At present I'm assuming it would be across the two front (main) out put studs on the machine.

    One of my current projects is working on qualifying a WPS (for pipe welding) to Section IX using a PipePro 450 RFC machine. At some point in the not to distant future I'm going to need to write a number on a form that will be the basis for a heat input calculation.

    Any one?
    Will Argue for Beer (any issue, either side)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    2,861

    Default

    Can't you get that reading from the machine?

    "
    If amperage was selected for display, the unit will show actual welding amperage prior to and while welding unless the the unit is in Display Command Values mode. Only wire speed command will be displayed while welding if the unit is set in Display Command Values mode, even if the Wire Feed Speed/Amps Display button is pressed."

    http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o221771w_mil.pdf
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
    MM252
    MM211
    Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
    TA185
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    O/A set
    SO 2020 Bender
    You can call me Bacchus

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    Can't you get that reading from the machine?

    "
    If amperage was selected for display, the unit will show actual welding amperage prior to and while welding unless the the unit is in Display Command Values mode. Only wire speed command will be displayed while welding if the unit is set in Display Command Values mode, even if the Wire Feed Speed/Amps Display button is pressed."

    http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o221771w_mil.pdf
    Broccoli1,

    There's been a recent change to Section IX concerning how heat in put calculations need to be done when using these new wave form controlled power sources. The old standard method of taking Amps x Volts x 60 / travel speed (to get Joules / in.) is no longer considered an acceptable way to do it.

    Now you have to take an instantaneous power reading in Joules/second (or Watts) x arc on time (in seconds) / weld bead length.

    If I was just using the machines straight CV MIG mode for this procedure what you've told me above would work (and be acceptable to code) for making this heat in put calculation.

    But the procedure I'm working on is going to use the machines RMD (for the root) and ProPulse modes (for fill and cap) which are considered to be "wave form controlled" processes. One thing I was surprised to learn was that these two processes are actually being accomplished with a CC output from the machine.

    The new Miller PipeWorx machine actually has an add on feature that will display this instantaneous power measurement on the control panel. Unfortunately it's not available for the PipePro 450 machine because it's been discontinued.
    Will Argue for Beer (any issue, either side)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 4956 View Post
    I've been told by some one at Miller that a Fluke model 345 meter is required.
    Are you sure it was a Fluke 345 and not a 435? Took me a while to figure this out as I transposed the numbers a few times myself. A 345 is a current probe that will give you amps. A 435 will measure both volts and amps and calculate instantaneous power from these values.

    There are other ways to do this as well. A Fluke scopemeter and a True RMS current probe could be connected to do this measurement..

    Do you have any of this type equipment? If this is a one time measurement, you could rent a 435. Also, you may find an electrical contractor or plant maintenance department that has one of these 435 or similar devices to take the measurement for you. Just some thoughts.
    Tim

    Many cordless tools...........
    2 cordless hammers
    2 cordless punches
    1 cordless chisel
    2 cordless screwdrivers, 1 + and 1 -
    and a cordless adjustable wrench that also doubles as a hammer.....

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    2,861

    Default

    http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/2010_addenda.pdf

    Doesn't say how to use the meter but since they published this PDF I imagine a call to them could provide the answer
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
    MM252
    MM211
    Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
    TA185
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    O/A set
    SO 2020 Bender
    You can call me Bacchus

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/2010_addenda.pdf

    Doesn't say how to use the meter but since they published this PDF I imagine a call to them could provide the answer
    B1,

    Dam good find man. That's some of the best commentary on the subject I've yet read. I'll be contacting Mr. Spokero by email this coming week to see what he'll be willing to tell me.
    Will Argue for Beer (any issue, either side)

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pin2hot View Post
    Are you sure it was a Fluke 345 and not a 435? Took me a while to figure this out as I transposed the numbers a few times myself. A 345 is a current probe that will give you amps. A 435 will measure both volts and amps and calculate instantaneous power from these values.

    There are other ways to do this as well. A Fluke scopemeter and a True RMS current probe could be connected to do this measurement..

    Do you have any of this type equipment? If this is a one time measurement, you could rent a 435. Also, you may find an electrical contractor or plant maintenance department that has one of these 435 or similar devices to take the measurement for you. Just some thoughts.
    pin2hot,

    Could well be that 345 got mixed up with 435. Sounds like you might have more familiarity with these meters than I have.

    My plan has never included buying this meter but rather finding some one local who has one I can pay to come take a reading for me. I'm just trying to get a better grip on what's needed equipment wise and the proper procedure to follow to use it before I start making phone calls locally.
    Will Argue for Beer (any issue, either side)

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/2010_addenda.pdf

    Doesn't say how to use the meter but since they published this PDF I imagine a call to them could provide the answer
    Broccoli1,

    I emailed the author of that paper asking if he could enlighten me further about the procedure for using the Fluke 345 meter to obtain this reading. He kind of dodged the issue by passing me on to some one at another company who makes something called the "JouleBox" they'd like to sell me for $3500. I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

    Euroweld has been involved with the whole waveform controlled issue from day one. We worked with EPRI, various manufacturers and others, including use of the Fluke 345. The result was that none of the existing devices were “welding friendly”. To that end, we designed and offer what we call the JouleBox2. This is a simple device designed specifically to monitor instantaneous volts, amperage and power. It will work with any brand of welding power source.

    Info and the operating manual are attached for your review. Cost for the unit is $ 3,495.00 USD.

    Will Argue for Beer (any issue, either side)

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