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  1. #11
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    Oct 2012
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    Default learn me to weld

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorkh View Post
    I recently upgraded from a Diversion 165 to a Dynasty 200 DX - primarily for its pulse capability. Of course I also got a WHOLE LOT of other tweak and adjustment capabilities. The owner's manual tells me HOW to adjust various parameters but does not tell me much about the interrelation between the setting. For example...

    If I adjust the shielding gas pre-flow in the "Advanced Functions" menu it seems like it effects the operation when I am operating the machine in "manual" mode with a foot pedal rather than a programmed welding scenario operated with an on/off push button.

    On the other hand, if I change the tungsten size selection does that change the startup performance if I am using a foot pedal for amperage control?

    Perhaps someone from Miller can chime in if there is some "engineering" documentation available for this welder.

    TIA,

    Ken
    If I adjust the shielding gas pre-flow in the "Advanced Functions" menu it seems like it effects the operation when I am operating the machine in "manual" mode with a foot pedal rather than a programmed welding scenario operated with an on/off push button.
    ***I'd suspect a careful study of the owner's manual would reveal.

    On the other hand, if I change the tungsten size selection does that change the startup performance if I am using a foot pedal for amperage control?
    ***Yes, the arc start characteristics are tailored for the electrode size. Selecting an electrode size smaller than the electrode used will give a softer start. The specific arc start parameters can be all be tweaked by going into the 'GEn' electrode selection, per below.
    The owner's manual details this:
    Page 38
    6-2. Programmable TIG Start Parameters
    A. Tungsten Selection

    Preset TIG Start Parameters
    Use Encoder control to select a tungsten size from the following: .020, .040, .062
    (1/16 in.), .094 (3/32 in.), or .125 (1/8 in.)(.094 is the default). When one of the listed tungsten sizes is selected, the following TIG starting parameters are preset: Amperage, Start Time, Start Slope Time, and Preset Amperage Minimum. There are a separate set of parameters for AC and DC (to select polarity see Section C). If it is necessary or desired to manually set the TIG starting parameters, turn the encoder until [GEN] is displayed on the amps meter (see Section B).

    ***In answering your question, it appears that you need to spend more time with the owner's manual

    Perhaps someone from Miller can chime in if there is some "engineering" documentation available for this welder.
    ***Typically, the end users of equipment know more about the operation of it than the factory does or cares to know. Welding machines are no exception.

    ***Below are some of your excerpted comments and replies; with this one statement finally cutting to the gist of what you're after:
    'If I can learn WHAT parameters I want for a particular situation, I can figure out HOW to establish those parameters in the Dynasty.'

    ***IOW, You're saying that if you can learn what you need to be looking for in the arc and the puddle for a given joint, given material, given position.....then--You'll be above to figure out how to setup the Dynasty to do that......uuumm...that's called 'experience'. It's up to you to be able to control the arc, throw the heat, read and work the puddle.

    There are often, more that one way to setup and weld with a Dynasty and get decent results, depending on the user's own preferences and quirks! Some ways are more effective and efficient than others--but some end users could care less.

    The owner's manual tells me HOW to adjust various parameters but does not tell me much about the interrelation between the setting.

    What I am after is to sort out which parameters are adjustable when using the machine with a remote amperage control vs. which parameters only function if I use a start/stop welding program. At least that is my task at the moment.
    ***Again, I'll bet the owner's manual discusses. I always use a remote.

    While I can sympathize with him to some extent, from the customer's point of view I guess I would translate this to "We are going to sell you a $4,000 - $14,000+ welder with a zillion features but don't ask us to give you more than the most rudimentary documentation." Had I come across the sticky thread first it would have given me pause before purchasing the Dynasty. End of rant.
    ***From what I've seen of other manufacturer's setup documentation---Miller does far more. Miller is also customer friendly to the small user and has built it's biz over the decades, on poor service by the big boys-Lincoln in particular.

    To get back on a positive note... Does anyone know of any good generic textbooks about inverter TIG welders? ***Nope---You need to also realize that setup parameters are often regarded as proprietary data, not to be shared with competitors or anybody. Many of the folks on this site are more charitable.
    The un-academic venues like this site, Welding tips & tricks dot com and Welding Web actually can further one's training from real world, end user experience.


    I looked at the AWS web site but their bookstore search seemed only to search the standards. If I can learn WHAT parameters I want for a particular situation, I can figure out HOW to establish those parameters in the Dynasty.
    p.s. Actually I have seen the first one which in fact contains all of the other ones. It is included on a DVD with the machine. I did not recognize the individual video names at first glance. Decent BASIC info but it does not go into the more advanced programming features.

    ***Reviewing the basics shown--helps. There's more Miller videos on this site that give a good starting point, from which one can start fine tuning. The Chris Razor videos, in particular-to me, are quite revealing on what can be done with AC arc focus setup---welding on a massive AL engine block with 3 /32 electrode--around 230 amps. [In 1997, I showed Miller factory, road show guys--AC arc focusing on sharp tungsten on AL plate welding, on their 700A machine. Fast forward to 2000, Miller finally realized that AC arc focusing, using an inverter was actually a selling point and began advertising the same.....quoting myself from above 'Typically, the end users of equipment know more about the operation of it than the factory does or cares to know. Welding machines are no exception.']

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    140

    Default

    Thanks dave powelson, I appreciate the time you have put into your reply. I have been continuing my study of the manual and have been in contact with Miller tech support. In my initial submission I asked
    Which of these Advanced Functions are disabled when using a remote amperage control?

    6.2A) Tungsten Selection
    6.2B) GEN
    6.2C) TIG Start Polarity
    6.2D) TIG Start Amperage
    6.2E) Start Time
    6.2F) Start Slope Time
    6.2G) Preset Amperage Minimum
    To which I received the reply
    None of these Advanced Functions are disabled when using a remote amperage control.
    This does not seem to be true. I replied to Miller's response
    A note under illustration 6-3.A states "When a foot or finger remote current control is connected to the welding power source, initial amps, initial slope, final slope and final amps are controlled by the remote control, not by the welding power source." Is the "initial amps" referred to here the same as the Start Amperage set by 6-2.A? If not, where would the Start Amps be shown on the illustration?

    Or for an example... I set the 6-2.D Start Amperage to 20 and the 6.2-E Start Time to 500 ms (1/2 second) and the Main Amps to 150. I then stomp the foot pedal to make a tack weld. Assuming I bottom the pedal in 100 ms. Does the current:

    - start at 0 and ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps then ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps, remain there for 500 ms then jump to 150 amps?
    - do something else which I have not imagined?

    It seems to me that either the remote amperage control or the power source can be in charge; not both. An answer to the above question will help me to understand at least the current piece of the puzzle. I WOULD expect that the Start Polarity and Pre-flow Time are controlled by the power source regardless of the use of a remote amperage control or a remote on/off control.
    I did not send this until Friday afternoon so I would hope to receive an answer next week.

    By reverse inference from some pointy finger notes in the Remote 2T, 3T, 4T and Mini Logic pages it seems like the answer to my question would differ if I am in RMT STD or one of the other modes.

    Ken

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    yuba city, CA
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    48

    Default Who's the Boss? machine or the remote?

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorkh View Post
    Thanks dave powelson, I appreciate the time you have put into your reply. I have been continuing my study of the manual and have been in contact with Miller tech support. ....
    ...snip.....Ken
    It seems to me that either the remote amperage control or the power source can be in charge; not both. An answer to the above question will help me to understand at least the current piece of the puzzle. I WOULD expect that the Start Polarity and Pre-flow Time are controlled by the power source regardless of the use of a remote amperage control or a remote on/off control. ***You're correct-the remote tells the machine to start the sequence and controls the amount of amperage (limited by the pre-set max amperage dialed in). When remote switches off, machine starts final amps and post flow.
    6-3a .jpg

    A note under illustration 6-3.A states "When a foot or finger remote current control is connected to the welding power source, initial amps, initial slope, final slope and final amps are controlled by the remote control, not by the welding power source." ***Miller should have stated are started or initiated by the remote control.

    Is the "initial amps" referred to here the same as the Start Amperage set by 6-2.A? ***Yes, see below and compare to the above. Initial amps and start amperage terms are being used interchangeably.
    6-3b.jpg

    If not, where would the Start Amps be shown on the illustration?***start amps and initial amps terms are interchangeable as mentioned above.

    Or for an example... I set the 6-2.D Start Amperage to 20 and the 6.2-E Start Time to 500 ms (1/2 second) and the Main Amps to 150. I then stomp the foot pedal to make a tack weld. Assuming I bottom the pedal in 100 ms. Does the current:

    - start at 0 and ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps then ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps, remain there for 500 ms then jump to 150 amps? ***Yes--the pedal simply starts the sequence, once the start sequence is complete, the pedal then controls the arc amperage up to the preset limit of 150 amps. When pedal is released the power supply begins the downslope, post flow sequence.

    - do something else which I have not imagined?

    I'm not defending or excusing Miller. Manuals are compiled by technical writers and illustrators, hopefully under engineering guidance; which may be superfluous. Manufacturers need to pay attention and make corrections in their manuals, when the manuals create needless confusion among the troops.

    On initial contacts with Miller support---they are prompt. courteous and you're dealing with clerks that use a standard script. At least, they're not in Mumbai--but stateside, English-first language. When looking to dig deeper (as you are) for a real answer than a scripted response from adverts or a manual......that's a whole nuther ball game. (Lincoln's the same way.)
    Manufacturers tend to shield management and engineering from the real-world questions, complaints, or problems...
    ..until things go very, very wrong. I think it's more profitable to close the gate before the horse gallops off, than after he does...old school ethics.

    [To get the installation instructions--prior to buying an option, to SEE what the installation entailed (Ground Current Sensor Kit 300 179) for my Dynasty 350,initial contacts with Miller support went nowhere-scripted responses, tried going to a back-door engineering contact, then I had to ask my LWS-Airgas to drag this out of them...and they got it done. It was like pulling teeth.)
    Last edited by dave powelson; 01-12-2013 at 02:48 PM. Reason: revise

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
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    130

    Default

    Click on the link below: It is part 1 of a few videos if i recall.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u4Efn1twUo

    This guy has all sorts of videos but in this series he goes over all the settings of an inverter. Pulse, Freq, balance, up slope down slope, etc. He is using an Everlast but the principle is the same. The only thing he doesn't go over is individual polarity as i dont think the everlast is that advanced.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Thanks regal2800,

    I have watched Jody Collier's videos for quite some time now. He is dangerous to my wallet. In addition to some Tig Fingers his videos have prompted me to purchase a CK Worldwide FlexLock torch, my Dynasty 200 DX and I now have on order some stubby gas lens parts for my WP17 family torches.

    Just for reference let me say that I am a hobbyist welder. I took some classes at the local community college about 6 years ago after retiring from a non-welding career. I have a science and engineering background so I understand the THEORY behind most of these settings. I am trying to sort out "Who's on first..." with Miller's multi-layered configuration process. In that respect, perhaps he Everlast has an advantage. But I don't buy my toys from China if I can buy American.

    And I am retaking the TIG course at the CC. They now have a very experienced TIG welder teaching the course and I am sure I will pickup some valuable techniques. The course just started and I do not know yet how much experience he has on inverter machines. They do not have any in the lab (except for mine which I will be bringing in each week starting tomorrow :-) Two Dynasty 350s were ordered last year and were supposed to be installed by now. However, they are sitting in the vendor's warehouse as someone in purchasing has misplaced of the paperwork. Hopefully they will be here in a couple of weeks. Perhaps we can get a Miller rep to come by and do a little dog and pony show with them.


    And thanks again and again dave powelson,

    But I think I answered one of my questions but did not realize it. Figure 6-3.A which I had quoted and you have attached tells us that the Initial, Main and Final amps as well as the Initial and Final slopes are controlled by the remote current control when in remote standard mode. That tells me that the settings under section 6.2 are disabled. The Miller response should have told me that setting the machine for RMT STD, not the physical connection of the remote current control, disables the functions. I have read else where that in other modes such as 2T, 3T etc. the on/off switch in the foot pedal is respected but the amperage control is ignored. So I can experiment with some programmed welding processes without having to purchase a push button control.

    If I examine your explanation
    ***You're correct-the remote tells the machine to start the sequence and controls the amount of amperage (limited by the pre-set max amperage dialed in). When remote switches off, machine starts final amps and post flow.
    I can see that the initial amps function could be helpful to get a clean arc start and stabilization. However, if I taper down the current, dab some extra filler to prevent a crater and then release the pedal, I would expect the welding process to stop. I would not expect the power source to redo the crater fill process. I believe that you have described the 2T mode of operation.

    Well again my thanks. And can I get an autographed copy of your book when it comes out?

    Ken

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Los Angeles
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    Default

    Section 5-9 Output control in the manual tells you all of that


    Application: Use Remote Trigger (Stan- dard) when the operator desires to use a foot pedal or finger amperage control (see Section 6-3A).
    . When a foot or finger remote current control is connected to the welding power source, initial amps, initial slope, final slope, and final amps are
    controlled at the remote control, not at the welding power source.
    . If On/Off only type trigger is used, it must be a maintained switch. All Se- quencer functions become active, and must be set by the operator.
    RMT 2T HOLD
    Application: Use Remote Trigger Hold (2T) when long extended welds are made. Remote Trigger Hold (2T) can help to re- duce operator fatigue.
    If a foot or finger current control is con- nected to the welding power source, only
    trigger input is functional (see Section 6-3B).

    Section 5-11 discusses Sequencer function and the first section informs you what happens when you use a remote in standard

    Sequencing is available only while using the TIG process, but is dis- abled if a remote foot or finger cur- rent control is connected to the Re- mote receptacle while in the RMT STD mode. Sequencer parameters cannot be selected if the Stick pro- cess (see Section 5-8) is active.
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  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Default

    Thanks Broccoli1,

    I had of course read that in section 5-9. However, when I read about the machine being able to configure its parameters based on tungsten diameter I got so enthused that I developed tungsten tunnel vision. I was concentrating on all of the neat TIG start features. I did not think back to an "oh by the way" note tucked at the bottom of another section.

    If I was writing this documentation (and I have written a considerable amount of technical documentation, computer program user manuals, nuclear plant radiation and chemistry protection procedures etc. etc. etc.) I would place a note at the BEGINNING of section 6-2 to the effect:

    Parameter in this section are not applicable if the power source is used in STD RMT mode.

    In that way a user concerned with using the machine manually with a foot pedal would skip over this section and concentrate on other sections which are applicable to the desired use.

    Ken

    p.s. I re-watched Jody Collier's videos about setting up the Everlast inverter machine. He too seemed a little unsure when he got to the TIG startup parameter knobs when setting up the machine for STD RMT. "Our foot pedal's pretty well gonna bypass this stuff anyway"

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