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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    140

    Question More advanced documentation for Dynasty welders?

    I recently upgraded from a Diversion 165 to a Dynasty 200 DX - primarily for its pulse capability. Of course I also got a WHOLE LOT of other tweak and adjustment capabilities. The owner's manual tells me HOW to adjust various parameters but does not tell me much about the interrelation between the setting. For example...

    If I adjust the shielding gas pre-flow in the "Advanced Functions" menu it seems like it effects the operation when I am operating the machine in "manual" mode with a foot pedal rather than a programmed welding scenario operated with an on/off push button.

    On the other hand, if I change the tungsten size selection does that change the startup performance if I am using a foot pedal for amperage control?

    Perhaps someone from Miller can chime in if there is some "engineering" documentation available for this welder.

    TIA,

    Ken

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,168

    Default

    Maybe you should do a reset to default settings and start over. I had to do it a couple of times when I messed it up beyond my ability to comprehend the results.

    And if you think the 200 is complicated, try a 350.
    Nothing welded, Nothing gained

    Miller Dynasty700DX
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    6 foot x 12 foot Mojave granite

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Thanks shovelon,

    I am aware of how to reset the machine. And I have done it a couple of times. What I am after is to sort out which parameters are adjustable when using the machine with a remote amperage control vs. which parameters only function if I use a start/stop welding program. At least that is my task at the moment.

    I am aware that the 350 has some additional "tweaks" available. I know from personal experience that the independently settable EP and EN currents on AC override the "max" amperage set on the panel. I was covering for an instructor at a local community college who was in the hospital. We had one 350 in the lab. A student was evaporating 1/8" tungstens trying to weld aluminum. He had the max amps set to 120 and the balance set to 30% EP. A 1/16" tungsten could carry that current. I downloaded the manual that evening and did a reboot the next day. The machine behaved fine. The following day, same settings, tap the foot pedal and poof - the tungsten was gone. Seems that someone in the evening class was dorking around with the settings and had the EP current set to 350 amps!

    Ken

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    East Tennessee
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Have you read the "sticky" about setting up a Dynasty at the top of this page?
    Professional Auto Mechanic since 1974
    My own shop since 1981
    Cya Frank

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Thanks Frank865!

    I generally start by selecting Quick Links and then Today's Posts. I had not looked at the top of the forum for years. I will spend some time going through the 19 pages of posts in the sticky and see what pearls I can find.

    Ken

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    140

    Default

    I have scanned through about a third of the sticky. I have seen a couple of good tips but hardly a substitute for good documentation. In the starting post ASKANDY from Miller states
    There also have been a lot of requests for a Dynasty book. Even though this is a GREAT idea and has been looked at, our resources at this time are too thin to take on this exhausting task.
    While I can sympathize with him to some extent, from the customer's point of view I guess I would translate this to "We are going to sell you a $4,000 - $14,000+ welder with a zillion features but don't ask us to give you more than the most rudimentary documentation." Had I come across the sticky thread first it would have given me pause before purchasing the Dynasty. End of rant.

    To get back on a positive note... Does anyone know of any good generic textbooks about inverter TIG welders? I looked at the AWS web site but their bookstore search seemed only to search the standards. If I can learn WHAT parameters I want for a particular situation, I can figure out HOW to establish those parameters in the Dynasty.

    TIA,

    Ken

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    yuba city, CA
    Posts
    53

    Default learn me to weld

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorkh View Post
    I recently upgraded from a Diversion 165 to a Dynasty 200 DX - primarily for its pulse capability. Of course I also got a WHOLE LOT of other tweak and adjustment capabilities. The owner's manual tells me HOW to adjust various parameters but does not tell me much about the interrelation between the setting. For example...

    If I adjust the shielding gas pre-flow in the "Advanced Functions" menu it seems like it effects the operation when I am operating the machine in "manual" mode with a foot pedal rather than a programmed welding scenario operated with an on/off push button.

    On the other hand, if I change the tungsten size selection does that change the startup performance if I am using a foot pedal for amperage control?

    Perhaps someone from Miller can chime in if there is some "engineering" documentation available for this welder.

    TIA,

    Ken
    If I adjust the shielding gas pre-flow in the "Advanced Functions" menu it seems like it effects the operation when I am operating the machine in "manual" mode with a foot pedal rather than a programmed welding scenario operated with an on/off push button.
    ***I'd suspect a careful study of the owner's manual would reveal.

    On the other hand, if I change the tungsten size selection does that change the startup performance if I am using a foot pedal for amperage control?
    ***Yes, the arc start characteristics are tailored for the electrode size. Selecting an electrode size smaller than the electrode used will give a softer start. The specific arc start parameters can be all be tweaked by going into the 'GEn' electrode selection, per below.
    The owner's manual details this:
    Page 38
    6-2. Programmable TIG Start Parameters
    A. Tungsten Selection

    Preset TIG Start Parameters
    Use Encoder control to select a tungsten size from the following: .020, .040, .062
    (1/16 in.), .094 (3/32 in.), or .125 (1/8 in.)(.094 is the default). When one of the listed tungsten sizes is selected, the following TIG starting parameters are preset: Amperage, Start Time, Start Slope Time, and Preset Amperage Minimum. There are a separate set of parameters for AC and DC (to select polarity see Section C). If it is necessary or desired to manually set the TIG starting parameters, turn the encoder until [GEN] is displayed on the amps meter (see Section B).

    ***In answering your question, it appears that you need to spend more time with the owner's manual

    Perhaps someone from Miller can chime in if there is some "engineering" documentation available for this welder.
    ***Typically, the end users of equipment know more about the operation of it than the factory does or cares to know. Welding machines are no exception.

    ***Below are some of your excerpted comments and replies; with this one statement finally cutting to the gist of what you're after:
    'If I can learn WHAT parameters I want for a particular situation, I can figure out HOW to establish those parameters in the Dynasty.'

    ***IOW, You're saying that if you can learn what you need to be looking for in the arc and the puddle for a given joint, given material, given position.....then--You'll be above to figure out how to setup the Dynasty to do that......uuumm...that's called 'experience'. It's up to you to be able to control the arc, throw the heat, read and work the puddle.

    There are often, more that one way to setup and weld with a Dynasty and get decent results, depending on the user's own preferences and quirks! Some ways are more effective and efficient than others--but some end users could care less.

    The owner's manual tells me HOW to adjust various parameters but does not tell me much about the interrelation between the setting.

    What I am after is to sort out which parameters are adjustable when using the machine with a remote amperage control vs. which parameters only function if I use a start/stop welding program. At least that is my task at the moment.
    ***Again, I'll bet the owner's manual discusses. I always use a remote.

    While I can sympathize with him to some extent, from the customer's point of view I guess I would translate this to "We are going to sell you a $4,000 - $14,000+ welder with a zillion features but don't ask us to give you more than the most rudimentary documentation." Had I come across the sticky thread first it would have given me pause before purchasing the Dynasty. End of rant.
    ***From what I've seen of other manufacturer's setup documentation---Miller does far more. Miller is also customer friendly to the small user and has built it's biz over the decades, on poor service by the big boys-Lincoln in particular.

    To get back on a positive note... Does anyone know of any good generic textbooks about inverter TIG welders? ***Nope---You need to also realize that setup parameters are often regarded as proprietary data, not to be shared with competitors or anybody. Many of the folks on this site are more charitable.
    The un-academic venues like this site, Welding tips & tricks dot com and Welding Web actually can further one's training from real world, end user experience.


    I looked at the AWS web site but their bookstore search seemed only to search the standards. If I can learn WHAT parameters I want for a particular situation, I can figure out HOW to establish those parameters in the Dynasty.
    p.s. Actually I have seen the first one which in fact contains all of the other ones. It is included on a DVD with the machine. I did not recognize the individual video names at first glance. Decent BASIC info but it does not go into the more advanced programming features.

    ***Reviewing the basics shown--helps. There's more Miller videos on this site that give a good starting point, from which one can start fine tuning. The Chris Razor videos, in particular-to me, are quite revealing on what can be done with AC arc focus setup---welding on a massive AL engine block with 3 /32 electrode--around 230 amps. [In 1997, I showed Miller factory, road show guys--AC arc focusing on sharp tungsten on AL plate welding, on their 700A machine. Fast forward to 2000, Miller finally realized that AC arc focusing, using an inverter was actually a selling point and began advertising the same.....quoting myself from above 'Typically, the end users of equipment know more about the operation of it than the factory does or cares to know. Welding machines are no exception.']

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Thanks dave powelson, I appreciate the time you have put into your reply. I have been continuing my study of the manual and have been in contact with Miller tech support. In my initial submission I asked
    Which of these Advanced Functions are disabled when using a remote amperage control?

    6.2A) Tungsten Selection
    6.2B) GEN
    6.2C) TIG Start Polarity
    6.2D) TIG Start Amperage
    6.2E) Start Time
    6.2F) Start Slope Time
    6.2G) Preset Amperage Minimum
    To which I received the reply
    None of these Advanced Functions are disabled when using a remote amperage control.
    This does not seem to be true. I replied to Miller's response
    A note under illustration 6-3.A states "When a foot or finger remote current control is connected to the welding power source, initial amps, initial slope, final slope and final amps are controlled by the remote control, not by the welding power source." Is the "initial amps" referred to here the same as the Start Amperage set by 6-2.A? If not, where would the Start Amps be shown on the illustration?

    Or for an example... I set the 6-2.D Start Amperage to 20 and the 6.2-E Start Time to 500 ms (1/2 second) and the Main Amps to 150. I then stomp the foot pedal to make a tack weld. Assuming I bottom the pedal in 100 ms. Does the current:

    - start at 0 and ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps then ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps, remain there for 500 ms then jump to 150 amps?
    - do something else which I have not imagined?

    It seems to me that either the remote amperage control or the power source can be in charge; not both. An answer to the above question will help me to understand at least the current piece of the puzzle. I WOULD expect that the Start Polarity and Pre-flow Time are controlled by the power source regardless of the use of a remote amperage control or a remote on/off control.
    I did not send this until Friday afternoon so I would hope to receive an answer next week.

    By reverse inference from some pointy finger notes in the Remote 2T, 3T, 4T and Mini Logic pages it seems like the answer to my question would differ if I am in RMT STD or one of the other modes.

    Ken

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    yuba city, CA
    Posts
    53

    Default Who's the Boss? machine or the remote?

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorkh View Post
    Thanks dave powelson, I appreciate the time you have put into your reply. I have been continuing my study of the manual and have been in contact with Miller tech support. ....
    ...snip.....Ken
    It seems to me that either the remote amperage control or the power source can be in charge; not both. An answer to the above question will help me to understand at least the current piece of the puzzle. I WOULD expect that the Start Polarity and Pre-flow Time are controlled by the power source regardless of the use of a remote amperage control or a remote on/off control. ***You're correct-the remote tells the machine to start the sequence and controls the amount of amperage (limited by the pre-set max amperage dialed in). When remote switches off, machine starts final amps and post flow.
    6-3a .jpg

    A note under illustration 6-3.A states "When a foot or finger remote current control is connected to the welding power source, initial amps, initial slope, final slope and final amps are controlled by the remote control, not by the welding power source." ***Miller should have stated are started or initiated by the remote control.

    Is the "initial amps" referred to here the same as the Start Amperage set by 6-2.A? ***Yes, see below and compare to the above. Initial amps and start amperage terms are being used interchangeably.
    6-3b.jpg

    If not, where would the Start Amps be shown on the illustration?***start amps and initial amps terms are interchangeable as mentioned above.

    Or for an example... I set the 6-2.D Start Amperage to 20 and the 6.2-E Start Time to 500 ms (1/2 second) and the Main Amps to 150. I then stomp the foot pedal to make a tack weld. Assuming I bottom the pedal in 100 ms. Does the current:

    - start at 0 and ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps then ramp up to 150 amps in the time it takes me to bottom the pedal?
    - start at 20 amps, remain there for 500 ms then jump to 150 amps? ***Yes--the pedal simply starts the sequence, once the start sequence is complete, the pedal then controls the arc amperage up to the preset limit of 150 amps. When pedal is released the power supply begins the downslope, post flow sequence.

    - do something else which I have not imagined?

    I'm not defending or excusing Miller. Manuals are compiled by technical writers and illustrators, hopefully under engineering guidance; which may be superfluous. Manufacturers need to pay attention and make corrections in their manuals, when the manuals create needless confusion among the troops.

    On initial contacts with Miller support---they are prompt. courteous and you're dealing with clerks that use a standard script. At least, they're not in Mumbai--but stateside, English-first language. When looking to dig deeper (as you are) for a real answer than a scripted response from adverts or a manual......that's a whole nuther ball game. (Lincoln's the same way.)
    Manufacturers tend to shield management and engineering from the real-world questions, complaints, or problems...
    ..until things go very, very wrong. I think it's more profitable to close the gate before the horse gallops off, than after he does...old school ethics.

    [To get the installation instructions--prior to buying an option, to SEE what the installation entailed (Ground Current Sensor Kit 300 179) for my Dynasty 350,initial contacts with Miller support went nowhere-scripted responses, tried going to a back-door engineering contact, then I had to ask my LWS-Airgas to drag this out of them...and they got it done. It was like pulling teeth.)
    Last edited by dave powelson; 01-12-2013 at 02:48 PM. Reason: revise

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