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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    3,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JTMcC View Post
    That's not a commercial environment. You aren't an employee of the school.
    I don't make up the rules, the federal dept of labor does.
    As far as the lawn mower goes, I don't have a landscaping business so I don't have any idea but I do know that I can't have a minor work with power tools, in an excavation plus a lot of other restrictions. Anybody can look em up at the dept of labor site.

    JT
    See young people all the time operating heavy machinery and equipment on farms.. some much younger than 16..... Maybe this could be interpteted as an "Agricultural" environment........ have seen 14 year olds operating half million dollar combines with as much competency as adults..... and a combine is certainly heavy equipment....

    It might just be that in a rural "Agricultural" setting, that there would be an interpretation of this situation that is quite permissable.... Different rules for industry and the family agricultural endeavor.... would probably have to be sanctioned an run by the parents as an official matter.......... but quite likely there are a set of circumstances that will allow this....

    there are places where "Dept of Labor" and "Dept of Agriculture" rules and regulations are in direct opposition..........

    depending on the state of residence.. a juvenile "Work Permit" could be gotten...
    with one of those... working restricted hours and under adult supervision many of thel child labor laws are waived.... using some "Common Sense"..............

    We are getting ourselves so over regulated that pretty soon we will face jail time and fines for "Passing Gas" without a permit and supervision....
    If we do not fix that pretty soon, we might as well lay down ans join all of the socialists in the European Union..... they have about 5 regulators for every productive worker... oh yeah... they are all going bankrupt....

    We are not talking about 19th century child labor abuse where they put 8 year olds in mines and factories for 16 hour days 6 days a week for pitys sake.........
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know......

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam..

  2. #12

    Default Business info

    Pretty easy- see your tax person and file sole proprietor business entity, get a tax indentification number(TIN). If from home get a home occupation permit from the city or township or if renting a shop in commercial zone you will not need the home occupation permit. Charge sales tax and keep track of it you may select to pay in sales tax collected only once a year if business in slow or part time. Come up a with a business name when you file the Sole Proprietorship, dream up a LOGO and check on trademarks for items you may manufacture and build. Do a patent search before building anything that maybe patented so you do not infringe? Always a chance you are and could get sued. Business insurance is optional? But only maybe 200 a year for part time welding. Much more for stuff that will be on the road and may require expensive inspections.
    Hope that helped?
    Virgil Johnson
    www.trailpostdriver.com

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Belgrade, MT
    Posts
    25

    Default Starting a business

    I am all for young people starting and running a business. I was 16 years old when I opened up a retail stroe (Sports cards and comics) The obsticles I ran into were not difficult to overcome. By law I was not able to enter into any contracts, so leases had to be in my parents name, insurance had to be in their name, and the business checking account had to have them as a co-signer. Credit cards in the business name was under them, that all changed when I turned 18.

    As far as the agriculture distinction, it does depend on the state. Until 5 years ago Montana called landscape business and lawn care business as agriculture business. ( And yes there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a landscaper and a lawn care) Agriculture business are exempt from DOT regulations and requirements, and in Montana the need for a drivers liscence is different on certain months of the years (harvest, spring planting so the 12 year old kids can drive the grain trucks) So I have my class A CDLw/Airbreaks and have to follow all the rules of the road when I hall a skid loader, but a rancher can have 10 round bails of hay on his gooseneck sticking out past the fenders and drive with no worries, me I will have the white truck with the blue lights behind me if I try that.

    As far as the rules and regulations that your local, state, and federal goveremtn requires abide by them whether you like them or not. Integrity in business is just as important as quality of work, or keeping your word. What makes you better then everyone else if you think that the rules don't or should not apply to you? Not only can it cost you in fines and reputation, but you may miss out on oppertunities from not having proper paperwprk, or the slight against your business name when the paper reports the fines and possible charges against it.

  4. #14

    Default

    Anybody that starts a business today should have a serious grasp about what they will encounter incuding the regulatory and legal burdens. It's a lot more important to understand the negatives than it is to know the potential positives.
    The internet is full of advise for potential business owners that consist of "go for it, you'll do great", "once you get word of mouth you'll be golden", "do good work and the money will come".
    Of course it's your life at risk, not theirs.
    Sorry but I know of dozens of grown men, with solid decades of experience, within a few hundred miles of my house that have lost it all in todays economy. I've gone to several of the auctions where their lifes work went for penny's on the dollar and these were men who ran good business' for 20-30 years with a stable, regular base of work with 1 -30 employees making a good living.
    The base went away tho, and they spent everything (well over 1 million US $) they had stashed for retirement and are working for hourly wages now. Guys who owned several houses and were planning on a pretty good life in retirement.
    Other regions have other economic realities but the bottom line is that overall in America it's a harsh world right now in most areas of self employment and when there is nothing to weld, welding companies drop like flies.
    Americans have always had and always will have the spirit to start a business but the failure rates in good economic times are high and they are worse right now. Hopefully that will change soon but there is less rod being burnt today than in a long time.
    When guys who have extensive bidding and successfull job completion experience are going down the tubes left and right it becomes an even harsher environment for a inexperienced beginer to survive and thrive in.
    It may get worse before it gets better and the more knowledge you have about the negatives the better.
    The "welding for a living" world is not the "mow lawns for spending money" world. Look at the number of unemployed welders (a lot of them call me every day looking for work) and the number of long gone welding business'.
    Look at the coalsmokes of the world, posted on the web like a real deal welding business, put less than a thousand hours on a machine in three years, live in Mom & Dads house and act all like a real virtual welding company. Gone like the wind, internet persona just a puff of smoke, in spite of the big time insults piled on people like me via the keyboard "I'm a badass and I learned all my terminology at a computer but I couldn't really hack it in the welding world.". That's the best example but there are a lot of others.
    Your keyboard persona will not pay any bills. Keep in mind that regardless of your age you WILL meet a sweet young thing and take on considerable responsibilities later in life = $$$$ required. A happy family can be rather expensive.
    So my best advise is to put a stopwatch to every task, record those numbers, learn to bid like a maniac and don't work by the hour, get off the interwebs, study your craft like no one else, buy every labor saving tool/piece of equipment and make your money on productivity.
    A sound small business will always make much more money by quoting work and then pumping it out in spectacular productivity. Lot's of slugs are out there quoting jobs at slug rates, paying slug wages and getting hammered.
    Oh and get several years real world hard money experience working for someone else (and using that stopwatch on someone else's nickle so you don't start out blind but have a super valuable database) before putting everything you own at risk.
    That database is money, especially now where people are quoting work just to pay overhead.
    Become an information sponge and absorb every money making trait and more importantly every money losing trait you see. Money losing businesses are on every corner, beat every dollar out of every bid and you can live a happy life and eat (plus a lot of other people can too) every day.
    And allways remember, it's a people business not a welding business. Make people money and they will call you.
    In my opinion this applies to small repair type to mid size contracting.

    My take only so of course take it or more likely ignore it.

    I hope everybody had as good a Christmas as we had. And I hope next year finds everybody busier than this, with a new president in place and EVERY SINGLE crooked idiot in Washington replaced : )

    Ho Ho Ho!

    JT
    Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    3,097

    Default Good Advice

    JTMcC
    Good solid advice....


    mauerick
    and it is indeed a tough market... think probably the worst since the great depression... no matter how the politicians cook the books to make things sound better and improving... I am afraid that it will still get even worse in the next couple of years... don't spend a penny that you do not have in pocket.. buy your equipment outright.. time payment is an invitation to giving it back if the unforseen happens and you are unable to make payments and as JTMcC said, study and work your tail end off...
    We presently have a terrible economy and the most business unfriendly administration in decades... so whatever you do, work hard and pay attention to every detail..
    Business wise there is no "low hanging fruit" to sustain a business as there is in good times... every bit will be hard won...
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know......

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam..

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    360

    Default

    You win H80N...
    Last edited by Doughboyracer; 12-28-2011 at 10:53 AM.
    MillerMatic 211 Auto-set w/MVP
    Just For Home Projects.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    3,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doughboyracer View Post
    Sounds to me like they weren't as smart of businessmen as you thought they were...to many places to go with that one. I know it happens but for a guy with millions and "several" houses...POOR choices is what that is. At some point you have to cut your losses and retirement is where that line should be drawn. Been to the malls or restaurants lately? I am still missing the part about recession...We all make choices, and have to live with those choices. 8-10% unemployment is NOT a recession. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
    I don't know where you live or what you do for a living.... but the "recession" or whatever you want to call it is real..... take a look at the number of commercial properties that are for rent or lease and that have been for some time.....
    and before you get too gushy and self congratulatory... remember... your job is just as vulnerable as those that you smugly declare as having made POOR choices..... time will tell.....

    might be even more vulnerable, if you are pontificating on the boss's time using a company computer... ya think??.... they are cleaning out the deadwood in the "white collar" ranks too I hear...

    BTW... that gov BLS link that you give is erronious to say the least, no administration in history calculated unemployment the way the present one does.... if you calculate it the old way the real number is closer to 17percent
    Just like inflation.... the NEW method of calculating it excludes the rising cost of food and fuel.... kinda unrealistic if you think that the majority of a family expenditure is for food and fuel..... take a look at equipment prices from 3 years ago and the same equip price now....
    Last edited by H80N; 12-27-2011 at 09:26 AM. Reason: clarity..
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know......

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam..

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doughboyracer View Post

    I find it interesting that you claim one thing while the link you provided shows a different picture. For example;

    "Manufacturing employment changed little over the month and has remained essentially
    unchanged since July. In November, fabricated metal products added 8,000 jobs, while
    electronic instruments lost 2,000 jobs.

    Construction employment showed little movement in November. Employment in the
    industry has shown little change, on net, since early 2010."

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    360

    Default Ever heard of vacation?

    You win H80N...
    Last edited by Doughboyracer; 12-28-2011 at 10:53 AM.
    MillerMatic 211 Auto-set w/MVP
    Just For Home Projects.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    3,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doughboyracer View Post
    I am always amazed at how defensive people get when you point out that there is only 8-10% of the people out of work. Not too bad when 25% of the population is too stupid to even be employed.
    A healthy economy has maybe 4 percent unemployment.... and 8-10% is OK?

    what planet do you live on???????????...
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know......

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam..

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