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Thread: inner shield

  1. #11
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    Dec 2007
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    alabama
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Wolf View Post
    No......It's not.

    If you guys want to be part of a proper "professional" welding site, interact with professional tradespeople, and think of yourelves as "welders" then you should start using the proper terminology. I know I am going to catch some flack for this but that is OK by me.

    Mig (Metal Inert Gas) is an old term that is no longer used....It has been replaced with GMAW (Gas-shielded Metal Arc Welding)

    Flux Core is FCAW (Flux Core Arc Welding) and can be self shield or dual shield.

    Self shield is the wire already described that is "gasless"

    Dual shield requires the presence of an additional inert gas just like is required by GMAW. If you try to weld dual shield wire without the shielding gas, you will have porosity and make a mess.

    I am well aware that it is very common to refer to any form of wire feed welding as "Mig".....but it is inaccurate and improper, so it's about time everyone makes the effort to get it correct.

    Thank you.
    black wolf while i agree with this, i was refering to the process.one only has to look at millers products board and see that they are called MIG welders.so are they wrong?
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  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
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    729

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabricator
    Millers products board - see that they are called MIG welders.so are they wrong?
    Not "Wrong" but please take another look at the products list. Everything is listed by generic name or time accepted "slang", then by proper AWS nomenclature that properly explains the process. Old & obsolete (New & Proper)

    Examples:

    Mig (GMAW) Metal Inert Gas is no longer used....Gas shielded Metal Arc Welding is.
    Tig (GTAW) Tungsten Inert Gas is no longer used....Gas shielded Tungsten Arc Welding.
    Stick (SMAW) Well, stick will always be stick....Shielded Metal Arc Welding.

    I suggested using proper nomenclature because it simplifies things when members ask questions. Which is easier to you???

    "Yeah, I'm having a wire feeding problem with my Mig......."

    VS

    "While GMAW with .035" ER70S-6, I am having a problem with...."

    Just thought if everyone used the same (proper) terminology, things would be simpler.
    Later,
    Jason

    Professional Spark Generator by Trade.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Orleans, LA
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    161

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    Mig is what they call the machine nowadays. GMAW and FCAW are the processes (we tend to just call them gas or fluxcore here, but then again I own the shop so I can call them whatever I want). I've never worked anywhere that the machines were referred to as the fcaw or gmaw or gtaw, etc. I've been around long enough not to be confused by terminology and am much more concerned with proper procedure.

    Now to answer the mans question. The primary differences have already been pointed out. FCAW has more dig than GMAW and it does take a little adjustment on technique and requires the same type of cleaning between passes as SMAW. Fluxcore works well on galvanize (in fact they make a wire specifically for it). In ironwork in order to use 7018 all of the galvanize must be ground off (anything done to code requires that regardless of electrode) whereas 6010/6011 can be used to weld without grinding the galv off (not for code welding though) that's why they use 5P on unistruct (that may be misspelled) for the electrical stuff. If you grind the galv off there is nothing left to weld. I have worked with the ironworkers (G6 cert) and have never seen FCAW utilized except for skinning boiler houses. I am sure that will be changing in the future, if it hasn't already, especially with the introduction of Lincoln's STT process which is cheaper, faster and simpler.

    As in all processes the procedure is determined by the code, or the wire classification for non-code work. Some FCAW wires are all position, and some are limited position just like stick electrodes.

    Bottom line is that if you are a good hand with GMAW then FCAW is an easy transition.
    Lincoln: Eagle 10,000, Weld-Pak HD, Weld-Pak 155, AC-225, LN-25 wirefeeder
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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    gate city virgina
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    fcaw is mig without the sheilding gas since it is self shielded wire.

  5. #15
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    Oct 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington
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    On a lighter note. While it is correct to call a process using flux cored wire FCAW but it sure sounds stupid to say. I use MIG because it is easier. The type of wire comes later if needed. For example, I MIG welded it together using flux cored wire. If you buy a machine to weld FCAW it will say MIG on the box. I am a professional welder with many years of experience. Now I work inspecting welds and qualifying procedures. Even the most experienced person will call the general process MIG. I think the most important thing this can do is create and maintain a non intimidating atmosphere for the new welder to seek answers to questions. If more information is needed ask, nicely. Otherwise that person will leave with a bad feeling for the best welders made, Miller. Sorry for the rant.

    Paul

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
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    Jolly Roger & Paul....I realize what you are both saying and I do the same myself. I have to use the term Mig often too because that's what everyone else knows it as....from watching American Chopper and American Hot Rod, Biker Build Off etc etc. Mig is what it has always been called....Doesn't mean that the term is accurate. I thought that we, as the professionals could educate the beginners, but if you guys are fine with leaving your fellow Americans uninformed and ignorant....That's OK with me. I'll concentrate on helping the Canadian members.

    Quote Originally Posted by migman69
    fcaw is mig without the sheilding gas since it is self shielded wire.
    THIS is exactly what I am trying to eliminate. We have a young feller here, that desite good intentions, is inaccurate, and if not properly educated, will continue to perpetuate his ignorance to others.

    I am not singleing (sp?) this youngster out, I intend no disrespect or hurt feelings. I am aware that he is 17 or 18 and a newcomer. I am using his quote as an example of how misinformation is spread.

    In direct rebuttle to his statement: Flux Core wire can be self shielded or "gasless", OR it can be dual-shield and require an externally applied shielding gas, just lke GMAW.

    Most newcomers & hobbiests, young & old, come here to learn out of convenience, rather than pick up a book, read, and educate themselves.....If we do not provide them with correct, accurate information, how are they going to learn???

    I'm not going to respond to this further on the open forum. Any further comments may be directed to me via PM.

    My apologies to Migman69 if he feels he was treated unfairly. Such was not my intent.
    Later,
    Jason

    Professional Spark Generator by Trade.

  7. #17
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    Dec 2006
    Location
    Alaska
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    732

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Wolf View Post
    Jolly Roger & Paul....I realize what you are both saying and I do the same myself. I have to use the term Mig often too because that's what everyone else knows it as....from watching American Chopper and American Hot Rod, Biker Build Off etc etc. Mig is what it has always been called....Doesn't mean that the term is accurate. I thought that we, as the professionals could educate the beginners, but if you guys are fine with leaving your fellow Americans uninformed and ignorant....That's OK with me. I'll concentrate on helping the Canadian members.



    THIS is exactly what I am trying to eliminate. We have a young feller here, that desite good intentions, is inaccurate, and if not properly educated, will continue to perpetuate his ignorance to others.

    I am not singleing (sp?) this youngster out, I intend no disrespect or hurt feelings. I am aware that he is 17 or 18 and a newcomer. I am using his quote as an example of how misinformation is spread.

    In direct rebuttle to his statement: Flux Core wire can be self shielded or "gasless", OR it can be dual-shield and require an externally applied shielding gas, just lke GMAW.

    Most newcomers & hobbiests, young & old, come here to learn out of convenience, rather than pick up a book, read, and educate themselves.....If we do not provide them with correct, accurate information, how are they going to learn???

    I'm not going to respond to this further on the open forum. Any further comments may be directed to me via PM.

    My apologies to Migman69 if he feels he was treated unfairly. Such was not my intent.

    Black Wolf Do not back down on this it is way to important.
    If one can't bother to learn the proper terms and explain his/her question in terms standard to the industry how can I answer them?????



    As to someone getting his feelings hurt oh well that is life take it or leave it.

    I am not advocating intentional rudeness or attacking fellow members. Stating fact and asking we all use one terminology to express our selves about welding is only logical. I would not want my doctor speaking to a colleague about my health care using nonstandard terms, why would we as professionals act any less professional.


    And to the chap who was a welder and is now inspecting, I expect better out of my inspectors, I you had that attitude on my job site you would not last long.
    As a CWI it is incumbent on me to hold my self to the code so as to not mislead some one into making an error based on my poor use of language.


    The AWS, ASME, ANSI, API, and on and on were developed just to combat this type of thing.


    Behind you all the way Mr. Wolf!!!!
    TJ______________________________________

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington
    Posts
    51

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    Fat Fab and Black Wolf

    You are both entirely right. We should use the correct terms for processes. I constantly educate experienced welders in proper terminology not to mention proper procedures. The fact that most of the people seeking information from this web site are not professional welders just makes it more important to provide proper information, Nicely. I fear I may have overreacted to what I felt was rough treatment of a person asking for information. I did not intend for my comments to be taken personally. I apologize for any offence. I would never call our neighbors to the north “uninformed and ignorant”. Some of the best information I have found on this site has been posted by you (Black Wolf and Fat Fab )and other Canadian members.

    Paul

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    gate city virgina
    Posts
    213

    Default im sorry for my ignorance fellas

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Wolf View Post
    Jolly Roger & Paul....I realize what you are both saying and I do the same myself. I have to use the term Mig often too because that's what everyone else knows it as....from watching American Chopper and American Hot Rod, Biker Build Off etc etc. Mig is what it has always been called....Doesn't mean that the term is accurate. I thought that we, as the professionals could educate the beginners, but if you guys are fine with leaving your fellow Americans uninformed and ignorant....That's OK with me. I'll concentrate on helping the Canadian members.



    THIS is exactly what I am trying to eliminate. We have a young feller here, that desite good intentions, is inaccurate, and if not properly educated, will continue to perpetuate his ignorance to others.

    I am not singleing (sp?) this youngster out, I intend no disrespect or hurt feelings. I am aware that he is 17 or 18 and a newcomer. I am using his quote as an example of how misinformation is spread.

    In direct rebuttle to his statement: Flux Core wire can be self shielded or "gasless", OR it can be dual-shield and require an externally applied shielding gas, just lke GMAW.

    Most newcomers & hobbiests, young & old, come here to learn out of convenience, rather than pick up a book, read, and educate themselves.....If we do not provide them with correct, accurate information, how are they going to learn???

    I'm not going to respond to this further on the open forum. Any further comments may be directed to me via PM.

    My apologies to Migman69 if he feels he was treated unfairly. Such was not my intent.

    Im sorry yes i am ignorant to the proper aws nomaclature, That is why I start welding school tommorow for a year to earn my aws certifications for Gmaw, Gtaw, and smaw, Upon complition of this school i will be a aws certified welder. Once again i apoligize for my ignorance And to correct you I am 24 years old still young but have been out of highschool for a while. yes the machines themselves will be refereed to mig, tig, and stick, I understand your refering to the processes themselves

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default Was going to do this VIA PM, but I'll do it this way.

    Migman,

    No apologies neccessary. I didn't intend for you to think that I was picking on you, I just used your quote to illustrate my point. Sorry I had your age wrong, we have SO MANY new members on these sites that are teenagers or newcomers it gets a little confusing.

    I'm not sure if he is offended or not, but Fat Fab is a snow bunny of a different colour.....He's from Alaska.

    Thanks for the PM's.
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 01-13-2008 at 09:38 PM.
    Later,
    Jason

    Professional Spark Generator by Trade.

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