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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    near rochester NY
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    9,881

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    heating the house is definitely the largest expense i have. and the heated water/fluid threw the floors was one of my first thoughts. but to do it by a boiler system or to try to soler heat it?? soler would be nice but in NY winter can you make hot water with soler?????
    another big problem i have is poor insulation ( trailer) so thats a big hit there. i thought about building a tire/earth wall across the front of the place as wind comes in that way hard all the time. just stooping the wind would help. new window (better ins. value) and adding a 3/4 furring strips and a layer of sheet rock helped big time on that wall. but the rest is still in big need.

    as for the car idea, i do have one advantage. most all my trips are under 40 miles round trip........if i could just get the wife to peddle.....
    thanks for the help
    ......or..........
    hope i helped

    feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. james@newyorkmetalart.com
    summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
    JAMES

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
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    304

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    Funny that this topic has come up. I've been thinking bout tinkering around with some of these same ideas. From my research, wind gen up to about 1Kw -1.5Kw are typically permanent magnet type units that are direct driven from a turbine. There's two main draw backs about the alternator applications. (these are from reading, not personal trial). First, car and truck alts don't reach their rated power until about 3K RPM. Because of this, a gearing system has to be employed. Any additional steps add more drag in small increments from belt tension to gear lube viscosity. The other neg part of alts is that they are inherently parasitic in their nature. They require an external supply to run the field coils. Now that you have done all this work to harness precious wind power, a percentage of it gets eaten up just to make it work. That's the beauty of Per Mag designs. Although an up side to alts is that you can get a three wire style unit with remote voltage sensing and have it sense at you battery bank and therefore overcome loses in the commutator from the turbine to the tower and any line loss that is present.

    Of course, I'm a born tinkerer, so here's my idea. I'm looking at picking up a 24V truck alt (either by Delco or maybe a Leese Neville). Building up a large enough turbine to handle the gearing and the alt load. Then, here's where it gets tricky. Pull the diode block out and put in a 3ph buck/boost transformer to step it up so that the current is low and the transmission cabling will be reasonable. Then buck the voltage back down at the battery bank and run it through the rectifiers and at that point connect the sensing lead to run back to the unit. Then, if I can afford it, hook up a grid synchronizing inverter system. Couple this with Net Metering (where your meter actually runs backward when your are putting power back into the grid and "storing" your watts as credit with the power company) and in theory it should work. Now, how long it will take to pay for itself, I don't know, but that's not the point of tinkering, now is it??

    On the subject of radiant floors, a friend of mine plumbed his shop floor in various zones. That way, when he was working on a car the area under the mechanic bay could be turned on and have a toasty floor to lay on.

    SSS
    Last edited by SkidSteerSteve; 12-05-2007 at 10:54 PM.
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  3. #13

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    you cant obviously boil water with solar... but its gotta work some how.. i see them on roof tops often around here..especially out my way where its less crowded... and your really not boiling the water.. just heating it up enought to transfer that heat from teh water into the concrete.. heck.. you could use an effeciant hot water heater.. only draw back with that is you really dont want to store teh water and heat it..you want to heat it and start pumping it right away.. overseas in japan..wall mounted electric/gas "flash" heaters are the rave.. super effeciant,, and work awesome... you could even use one of them...

    as for the sun warming up the water.. on decent days.. even in cold weather..UV rays should still hit the black backdrop of the pipes,, and warm them up that way.. may jus tbe enough to take some of the load of the boiler... i plan on keepin my dream shop at a toasty 50deg's at all times..and crankin her up to 80 when im in there working... welding and fabing in a hoola shirt and flipflops in janurary!!!


    you all are welcome for the februrary cookout BBQ and spades tourny

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Mpls, MN
    Posts
    1,790

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    Boiling water with solar is unrealistic due to the time over which the needed energy would be produced in order to be transferred into the water (the water would dissipate the heat before you could achieve the temp).

    Solar assisted hot water heat would be a good idea.

    What we found in my 9th grade science class, was that via solar and a concave mirror focused on a black or olive green pipe, we were able to raise room temp water up to 120F. So that's as good as a typical hot water heater. Not bad for free. But this was also with an ambient temp of 60-70F. In winter, that same 60 degree differential would only get you back up to 60 if it was 0 outside. However, that's still comfortable if you're augmenting a furnace.

    Enclosing the mechanism prevents convective losses as well as conserving radiant losses which boost efficiency. This is what has become typical of permanent installations. It also keeps the mirrors clean.

    If I were trying to heat a big building with a flat roof, I would definately invest in solar hot water assist with in-floor heat.

    The only reason I didn't do in-floor radiant heat in my shop is because I didn't want to limit my ability to anchor to the floor.
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  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    near rochester NY
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    sounds like using a soler water heater to heat the water then running it threw some radiant heater units in the house could definitely reduce the over-all house heating $$ several radiator heater units threw-out the house with 120 degree water in them would have to add some heat to the house.
    sounds like a good place to start. do some more research on how to make a nice big soler heater over the winter and get it built this summer. next winter it could be useful. the big question would be $$ invested VS $ saved. but at $3.89 a gal for heating oil, it seems like even a 20% decrease in oil usage would cover a good bit of build $$. 20% of my heating bill is like $600.oo thats a lot of build $$. i'll definitely have to look in that direction wile looking into wind generators. a 10K generator head is only like $400. the problem is getting the wind mill to keep it at speed, and then the $ for the hook up a grid synchronizing inverter system. Couple this with Net Metering (where your meter actually runs backward when your are putting power back into the grid and "storing" your watts as credit with the power company). that part is a must for any real savings in the electric bill. any other wind electric could only be used to power battery's witch would just cover lighting. helpfully but a very small part of the over all bill.
    well i'll keep looking at options and let you all know if i come up with any that seem do-able and low $$ in parts. if i can afford to do it then it would most likely be very do-able for the rest of ya. even if you just use it to keep the back yard shop a little warmer wile you are not in there.
    thanks for the help
    ......or..........
    hope i helped

    feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. james@newyorkmetalart.com
    summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
    JAMES

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    605

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    most of the solar HW sytems that i see around here are 4 inches deep, 24 inches wide and 4 feet tall. Typical size. They are basically a box with a glass top painted black on the inside with flat black pipe about 2 inches in dia running through it. Most boxes (from what i recall) have about 40 feet of pipe inside them. they can be daisy chained and the whole system is driven by a resevoir in the basement (or where ever) and a circulation pump and then to a heat exchanger on your forced air furnace or w.h.y.

    After discussing this setup with a company that was at the vancouver home show, they assured me that this system would still make enough warm water to heat your home in the mid winter temps of our "zone".

    I am still skepticle though.
    I think the firebox/boiler/expansion tank/circulation pump would be more efficient and you have total control. No hoping for wind or sunny day or whatever. just throw a log on the fire, turn on the pump, heat up a 100 gallons of water and coast for the next 10 hours as the water cools.
    You'd only need to get the water to about 150 degrees. Add a thermostat switch to the circulation pump circuit to control the out flow of water to the individual rooms and tada.... relatively inexpensive heat and comfortable nights, oh and shop floor...
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

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  7. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
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    72

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    Here's a good site for radiant heat info: http://www.radiantec.com/index.php?g...FQ_bIgod5h5q7g
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  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tennessee this week, Wyoming next week.
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    49

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    I met a guy in Golden Colorado who was building am adobe house. He had his city water enter the house through piping laid in the slab floor in a grid like a (now common) radient heat system.

    He figured that the temp of the water from the street would be higher than the floor exposed to the winter air (unheated garage) and couldn't hurt to sap some of that energy on the way to the house plumbing. He did tell me that he'd built in a shunt to bypass the system in case there was a failure in the future.
    That was back in the late '70s.. Gotta remember to look that house up if I ever get back there, to see how it's working.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    near rochester NY
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    i have well water so i could not get any heat out of it, but in the summer its plenty cold. however the electricity to pull it out of the well to cool the house would be no good for my bill.. maybe a wind mill to pump it but i would contaminate the well if i pumped it back into it after running threw my radiator system. and even though we don't drink our well watter its still in the ground so i would not want to add anything back into it. no telling where it would end up.

    i gotta go see the wind mill my neighbor has. i been told there is one near by, so i'm off to see what i can find out.
    thanks for the help
    ......or..........
    hope i helped

    feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. james@newyorkmetalart.com
    summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
    JAMES

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    605

    Default

    instead of water from your well, you coud build a closed system that uses glycol. There are eco friendly ones out there...im sure.

    yeah i know more cost.... etc etc.
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

    Miller 251/30A spool
    Syncro200
    Spectrum 625
    O/A
    Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
    Standard modern lathe
    Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
    horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
    Roland XC540 PRO III
    54" laminator
    hammer and screwdriver (most used)
    little dog
    pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

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