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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    313

    Default

    I think Sonora Iron is old school. I know that because I'm also old school.

    I learned to weld almost forty years ago using a buzz box and 6011. I would see the roll of dimes look welds and I assumed that meant the weldor was weaving his puddle like a machine. It wasn't until a couple of years later while studying welding in a night class at a junior college (VA Money) that I was exposed to mud rods.

    The instructor had us gather around and he set up a butt joint using 6013. He struck his arc and just dragged his rod. When he stopped we looked up just in time to see the flux peeling back off the weld exposing the roll of dimes look.

    "CHEATING SOB'S!!!!" was all I could say.

    Even when using what I call a mud rod or a mig I still work the weld like I did back then with the 6011. It's not unlike the way you do it with tig or gas welding where you get the puddle and it's like herding cats some days and sheep others.

    The important thing to remember is the weld is formed when the parent metals get to a liguid state on the surface. The puddle is about the filler material. But what's important is what's happening at the parent metal.

    The best weld is a forge weld. There the parent material's surface is brought to a liquid state, a flux is applied, and pressure is applied, typically with hammer blows.

    The beautiful weld is created when the weldor controls the heat and speed. It's all about heat and speed. If you doubt it look at an automatic weld.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Deltaville, VA
    Posts
    2,239

    Default

    S&P,

    Technically what you have there is a corner and a t joint. The t is welded with a fillet weld.

    Regardless of the naming, the joint is only as strong as the weakest member. In this case the 11ga tube.

    One of the primary benefits of short arc transfer is the fact that it's a rather low energy, controllable process. You don't have to rush thru your weld.

    Spray transfer, on the other hand, is a very high energy transfer process designed primarily for welding material over 1/4". An example would be butt welding 3/8" steel. Pulse welding without spray, because you're dealing with a very fluid puddle, is generally to welding in the flat position. Enter pulse spray. The pulsing allows the bead to freeze slightly allowing spray transfer in other than the flat position. An example here would be a vertical up fillet in 3/8" steel.

    Short response. Spray transfer is a high energy, high deposition, process used for thicker material. Pulsed spray enables the process to be used in other than the flat position.

    In the case of the project you're doing, short arc has the advantage in that it is slower and allows you to better control the bead. It's more than sufficient to attach 1/8" material to 1/4" material.

    For that material (using either the 251 or XMT304) I'd start (no pulse) at about 18v with a WFS of about 280 (.035 wire). You may have to back those settings off slightly (they're for 3/16 material) as you try them on some scrap.

    A consistent push technique will provide the flattest bead. If you're looking for the dimes/ripples, there are several techniques to achieve those.

    I wasn't trying to put you down in my first post. Just saying there was an easier way to go about the job. The spray transfer process is putting down so much material so fast that it is hard to control on a small job like this. Ugly, may have been too hard a term for the weld I see. Definitely way too much material deposited, and was not consistent from beginning to end. It would require a considerable amount of cleanup/grinding.

    The 350P is a great machine. Would love to have one (I get by with a 304, digital feeder, and optima pulser). It's capabilities are great. I guess, what I'm saying "in country boy lingo" is you don't go squirrel hunting with a 44 Mag.

    <3/8" material - short arc
    >3/8" material - spray
    >3/8" material, out of position - pulsed spray

    I'm sure there are guys out there who use spray every day, and can give some tips, however, for the job you're doing, I think you'll get much better results with short arc.
    Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200 DX
    Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
    Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
    Hobart HH187
    Dialarc 250 AC/DC
    Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
    Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
    PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
    Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
    Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
    More grinders than hands

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    dallas,tx
    Posts
    207

    Default

    Sundown,

    Thanks for taking the time to break things down into very simple guidelines.

    Anytime you care to elaborate on achieving the dimes/ripple effect with MIG, I will read and practice thoroughly.

    I am currently about 1/2 way through a 300cf bottle of 90/10. When's that's gone, based on your suggestions, I am going to get 75/25 for the next round of fun.

    I started fabrication on my large welding table today where everything is >3/8". Should be a good place to use up the bottle.

    When choosing between the 251 and 350P, I opted for the 350 to allow room to grow into it's capabilities. It works great and is definitely not the limiting factor in weld appearance
    Miller 350P
    Miller Econotig
    Milwaukee Dry saw
    Evolution Dry saw (for sale)
    Scotchman 350 cold saw
    7x12 bandsaw
    1910 ATW 14 x 72 lathe
    fridge full of adult beverages
    Sirius radio

    www.snpequipment.com
    callouses and burns a plenty

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Deltaville, VA
    Posts
    2,239

    Default

    S&P,

    Don't think there is one "CORRECT" way to achieve the ripples. Really comes down to technique and what you feel comfortable with.

    Some like to use a "C" weave. Some use the "J", etc., etc.

    Lot will depend on the material and joint type you're dealing with.

    One excellent discussion of the different techniques can be found in Miller's GMAW Handbook. You can download it from the resources tab above or, even better, order a copy in hard copy. If you order, order the Student Pack. It includes the GMAW Handbook, a GTAW Handbook, and a GMAW-P handbook. Best $25 you'll ever spend in welding.

    I was very close to upgrading my MM251 to a MM350P, but a "deal I couldn't turn down" came along on an XMT304 and I went that direction. Added a digital wirefeeder (basically the S74DX) and an Optima pulser to get about the same capabilities as the 350P. The 304 requires a little more setup, but has a couple features not avail on the 350P (tig and stick).

    Bouncing all over>

    For those edge welds (not the fillet with the T) I would (and I think it's been recommended before) slightly bevel the 2" tube. This will leave a small valley between the two pieces. I'd then use a steady push to fill the void. This will give you the flattest bead requiring a minimum of cleanup. I wouldn't use any fancy oscillations of the tip here. The fillet could be done with the "C" and would give you the ripples.


    As far as the gas, you may want to stay with the C10. C10 is a more multi use mix than C25. Not sure with the 350P, but with the Optima pulser, many of the spray programs call for the use of C5. If you go with the C25, you're taking away your capability to do spray arc welding (spray, generally requires an argon ratio > 82%).

    To avoid having to have an assortment of "MIX" bottles, I use the Thermco 8500 mixer. Simple turn of the dial sets the mix. That way I only need to keep on hand a large bottle of Argon and a 50# cylinder of CO2. I use a Smith mixer for mixing Ar/O2 and another Smith mixer for Ar/He (Tig). Really reduces the # of bottles on hand.
    Last edited by SundownIII; 02-21-2010 at 10:36 AM.
    Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200 DX
    Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
    Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
    Hobart HH187
    Dialarc 250 AC/DC
    Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
    Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
    PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
    Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
    Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
    More grinders than hands

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,949

    Default "The Joint"

    Scott: Sundown gave you some great advice and recommendations. He really knows his GMAW and GTAW processes. (As does Fusion King)

    You can narrow down the types of joints to basically these five.

    Butt, Tee, Corner, Lap, and Edge.

    The types of welds can be summarized by these six. (both single and double)

    Fillet (including lap), square, bevel groove, V groove, J groove and U groove.

    That MM 350 is an oustanding machine. Don't think I was criticizing you when I mentioned I would probably use lo-hi rods, and be done with it.

    80% of what I do (even small projects), I usually run stick, it's just quicker for me.

    Keep us posted of your project progress.

    Dave
    "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Williams Lake, British Columbia
    Posts
    722

    Default

    Quicker to run stick than mig

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
    Posts
    1,287

    Default

    Just a clarification, previously I mentioned beveling the outside edges of the 1/2" flat, I intended to say, the three sides of the part of the 1/2" flat, that would be contacting the tube.

    All due respects to SDIII, it would be far easier, faster, and more efficient, to bevel the flatbar, than the tube. No need to bevel anything, on the inside joint, a plain fillet will do just as well.
    Obviously, I'm just a hack-artist, you shouldn't be listening to anything I say .....

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