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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Lake of the Ozarks MO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy Jim View Post
    .................................. and don't worry too much about product liability......................................... .......

    Most of us are probably too "poor" to sue anyway. The lawyers won't take the case for the opposing side if there's no payout for them.
    Even tho this is the worst advise in the world... it is very true in most cases. Unless it was truly a criminal thing how poorly the work was done and they just wanna take you for everything you have and get all they can... like when a death is involved or someone is crippled for life.
    If you have all the right equipment to do this type of work then fine.
    If not, then actually you are not only yanking our chain but your own as well.
    If you don't even have a "biz" then I am here to tell you that building cages will merely be a fleeting moment in the grand scope of being a welding business. It is just "sizzle". You don't want to expect to base your lifestyle on this, so don't let it enter into your thinking unless you have been working for a PRO cage builder and are now breaking out on your own.
    The money for those types of projects dries up overnight quite frequently.
    I build cages/headers when I can and the money is there, but I never make it a priority because there normally isn't enuff of that to feed the family if you know what I mean. Way too many hours for the money that it brings unless you are working for known "pros"....and if you were we wouldn't be having this discussion.
    If you was me, you would build things of that nature (cages, fuel tanks etc..) for cash only with no receipts and I also have a very bad@$$ brother in law I threaten them with as well
    You should maybe sponsor one to test the water first. If you aren't willing to do that then chances are you wouldn't care much for it anyway.
    Most everyone I sponsored..... I pretty much was able to remember what a looser way to make money racing is. And I have thirty years of that now.
    BTW....you can pretty much get sued for making ANYTHING on a car that modifies it from stock when you really think about it.
    Last edited by FusionKing; 11-25-2009 at 06:30 AM.

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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    18

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    Thanks for the advice, I never thought of the cash-no-paper trail approach. As grubby as that seems its probablly the safest. I do have the equipment/exeprience to do it, that isn't the problem, nor will my biz be based solely on motorsports, in fact most of my business is based on agricultural and trailer fabrication/repair, but with the opening of a local race track and the fact that sanctioned mud racing events around here are becoming popular, it is a part of the market noone has touched around here as of yet. So if I can add this line of work to my existing business it would possibly mean more money and something I am more interested in than rebuilding disc harrows. I just want to cover myself, as I know insurance for this kind of fabrication is, just like well head/hot tie in insurance, a seperate policy on top of liability. If something of mine does fail on a harrow its not a big deal, however I get a call for a guy who put his car into a guardrail at 100mph, thats a different issue. Everyone nowadays looks for a scapegoat and to pass liability, I just want to know that at the end of the day I can still go to my house which isnt repoed for lawyer defense fees. (Yes I know incorperating can prevent this)

    I am a person who prepares for the worst, I also work with police and lawyers quite often so I know what people are capable of it they dont want to accept responsibility for their own actions. EG: a guy buys a mountain bike with a sticker on the bike that is clear coated over that says ride with a helmet and use a light at night, then runs into the back of a parked jeep and sues for the dealer not verbally telling him those warning, (yes he was literate) and his wife also sued on top for not being ***ually satisfied while he was in the cast. She got 250k, last I heard he was in the millions.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Mpls, MN
    Posts
    1,790

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    I wasn't saying that not having insurance was the way to go, just that I don't worry too much about product liability. I still have insurance.

    It won't do me or anyone else a darn bit of good in the event of negligence, because they won't pay if you're letting dangerous stuff go out the door. That's all I'm saying.
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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    871

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy Jim View Post
    Unless your product can be proven to be responsible for creating the incident, and/or you can be proven negligent in manufacturing such product as to knowingly let something unsafe into the world, there's not much that can come back and bite you.
    The burden of proof in civil cases is "a preponderance of the evidence," or in other words, can a jury of schmucks with absolutely no understanding of mechanics be convinced (or confused) that there is more than a 50% chance that the plaintiff is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy Jim View Post
    Most of us are probably too "poor" to sue anyway. The lawyers won't take the case for the opposing side if there's no payout for them.
    The term most commonly used in legal circles for this is "Judgment Proof." But the only people who are judgement proof are the disabled, welfare dependants, and the permanently unemployable, without any assets (or at least without any assets that are not protected).

    If you have a car, property, 401k, bank account, or any other tangible assets, or plan on ever being employed in your lifetime, you are NOT judgment proof.

    I repeat because this is important...

    If you have a car, property, 401k, bank account, or any other tangible assets, or plan on ever being employed in your lifetime, you are NOT judgment proof.

    I can assure you that there is a lawyer somewhere willing to take the case against you no matter how un-wealthy you think you are. And if the court finds for the plaintiff, it will look into every dime you own, will ever own, and can garnish future wages as well.

    A judgment against a healthy young entrepreneur is guaranteed money in the bank. It's like an annuity. Don't think for a second that nobody will take the case because they can't get the lump sum tomorrow, especially in hard times like these when deep pockets are harder to come by.

    80% of failures are from 20% of causes
    Never compromise your principles today in the name of furthering them in the future.
    "All I ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work." -Sgt. Bilko
    "We are generally better persuaded by reasons we discover ourselves than by those given to us by others." -Pascal
    "Since we cannot know all that there is to be known about anything, we ought to know a little about everything." -Pascal

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
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    1,273

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    Remember, a court case, whether you are in the right or in the wrong, is gonna cost you money. You still have to pay the lawyer, the expert witnesses, etc.

    My commercial insurance policy (which I pay plenty for), covers two commercial trucks (unable to cover on personal insurance policy), inland marine, which covers personal business property, and whatever customer's property entrusted to me), general liability (which covers me for anything stupid I might do, either here or on a customer's location), and completed operations and products. Both the general liability, and the completed operations, are important. As long as I don't do anything specifically excluded (read the fine print), I am covered, this is a contract. About the only thing excluded in my policy, is nuclear power plants, I'm fine with that, no wish to do it anyway.

    I have always, had a thing about insurance. You buy it for two reasons. One, to protect yourself, your own personal assets, your house, your personal property, your bank account, your 401k. ALSO, being in business, you have a responsibility, to "make right" anybody you could have harmed, through your activities. Not getting into the debate about frivolous lawsuits here,,,,, but if you weld a trailer hitch that breaks, you are morally responsible if not legally responsible, whatever LLC's or corporations you choose to hide behind, for the poor soccer mom and kids killed or severely injured, because of your inadequate work.

    And doing "cash work", isn't completely valid,,,, unless, of course, you have means to eliminate all the witnesses .....

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    greenfield new hampshire
    Posts
    876

    Default jsfab and boddybagger

    you two men are 100% correct, what you have said really spells it out, i have a llc, and a policy, being a small business, the llc and corporate stuff does not offer much protection, if i messed up and hurt someone the llc would be ripped thru with ease to get to me in the court room, any one can sue anyone so if there is a frivolous law suit, the guy with insurance calls his agent and it goes on from there, if you DONT have insurance you are in a real mess, you will need to retain an attorney, he will want a retainer, frivolous suits generally sue for at least a 6 didget figure, take a guess on what that retaining fee would be, read the 2 previous post, they are right on. good luck with your venture, but dont go uninsured. kevin

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Island Falls Maine
    Posts
    562

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    I have a portable welding truck and I have my Truck insurance, for 1,200 a year, my liability insurance of $1,000,000 coverage for $6,900 a year. and property liability of 5,000,000 coverage for $15,000 A year a total of $23,100.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    871

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    Food for thought:

    If you are a contractor and you weld something that either breaks and ends up maiming or killing someone, or requires expensive rework (up to and including demolition and rebuilding) because you made bad welds that day, I have bad news for for you.

    There is a VERY GOOD chance that your general liability coverage policy specifically excludes this, and you can legally be denied coverage.

    Before you go thinking your general liability covers everything that happens to you in the course of doing business, ask yourself this question:

    10 or 15 years ago, did you assume that your homeowner's policy covered flood damage?

    Well, now we all are wiser and even kindergartners know flood damage is almost always excluded and requires (expensive) separate flood insurance.

    If a loss is caused by professional misjudgment, error, or omission, it will generally only be covered by contractor's errors and omission.

    Much the same way that a surgeon's general liability policy will not cover him if he cuts off the wrong leg... that is only covered by medical malpractice insurance.

    In insurance, as well as legal matters, assumptions can be very expensive.

    http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    80% of failures are from 20% of causes
    Never compromise your principles today in the name of furthering them in the future.
    "All I ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work." -Sgt. Bilko
    "We are generally better persuaded by reasons we discover ourselves than by those given to us by others." -Pascal
    "Since we cannot know all that there is to be known about anything, we ought to know a little about everything." -Pascal

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
    Posts
    1,273

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    Quote Originally Posted by m.k.swelding View Post
    I have a portable welding truck and I have my Truck insurance, for 1,200 a year, my liability insurance of $1,000,000 coverage for $6,900 a year. and property liability of 5,000,000 coverage for $15,000 A year a total of $23,100.
    This sounds high, extremely high. Unless there's something special about the insurance market in Maine, I'd be shopping around. Seriously, I read several of your posts about hourly rates,,,, that's insane, for what you are charging. Please expain further, the costs and coverages you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodybagger View Post
    Food for thought:

    If you are a contractor and you weld something that either breaks and ends up maiming or killing someone, or requires expensive rework (up to and including demolition and rebuilding) because you made bad welds that day, I have bad news for for you.

    There is a VERY GOOD chance that your general liability coverage policy specifically excludes this, and you can legally be denied coverage.

    Before you go thinking your general liability covers everything that happens to you in the course of doing business, ask yourself this question:

    10 or 15 years ago, did you assume that your homeowner's policy covered flood damage?

    Well, now we all are wiser and even kindergartners know flood damage is almost always excluded and requires (expensive) separate flood insurance.

    If a loss is caused by professional misjudgment, error, or omission, it will generally only be covered by contractor's errors and omission.

    Much the same way that a surgeon's general liability policy will not cover him if he cuts off the wrong leg... that is only covered by medical malpractice insurance.

    In insurance, as well as legal matters, assumptions can be very expensive.

    http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
    General liability, usually covers you for whatever "accidents" might happen, when you are on site. "Completed operations,",,,, Or "Product liability",,,, will cover you for damages after the fact.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    103

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    OK first thing I know in business is where liability is concerned or possibly concerned, distance yourself and personal property by creating a buisness CORP or LLC.
    "IWeldSTUFF LLC" is like its own person to the law.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company

    A good place for help is the Small Business Association, they give free help and mentoring. http://www.sba.gov/

    If you do this correctly you can not lose your home and personal bank accounts due to business failure, not true in case of businesses created for the purpose of fraud. But good for accidental injury and property damage. You will be required to maintain your local licensing for what ever work you are doing, ie: contractor ect. and insurances the local laws require. This may not be much and may be a massive amount depending on your local laws.

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