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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Lake of the Ozarks MO
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    3,593

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    Oh I can see it now....someone hit's the fence that shouldn't have been there and was a bit too sturdy....owner get's sued and moves back fence and makes it a breakaway design.
    Later while having a BBQ someone hits the fence and it gives way as designed... killing one of the guests and once again the homeowner gets his @$$ $ued off once more!!
    In both cases the fabricator also got $ued and was found liable as well

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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
    Posts
    1,287

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    Pic one, old mailbox post .... 12" X 12" concrete, poured in place, lots of concrete below ground level.

    Pics two and three, new mailbox, planter is made of 18 x 120(?) H-beam. With dirt and everything, my 5000# capacity field-lift, can move this only by using the wheel brakes, the steering axle barely touches the ground.

    Nobody, even the drunks, have had the guts to run into either one yet

    Anyway, that's what homeowner's insurance is for.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Medford MA
    Posts
    542

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSFAB View Post
    Anyway, that's what homeowner's insurance is for.
    you might want to check ... just to be sure.
    some policies in some places (depends on local rules/etc/etc)
    say "we dont cover you if you do something you know (or should know)
    that you should not do" (obviously, in more legalistical terms and all that).

    frank

    p.s. i do like the second one -- the big i/h/whatever beam/planter/...
    looks neat

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
    Posts
    1,287

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    It was just a little scrap H-beam lying around,,,,, bored,,,,, ??? what to do????

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
    Posts
    1,287

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    Notice the second pic ..... If by chance one misses my planter, which happens to be just inside the line of the utility pole .......

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    893

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    Quote Originally Posted by crawdaddy View Post
    For running over the guys fence?,If you cant keep the car between the sidewalks the fence isnt the problemMike
    Cars will leave the roadway, both by actions that are the fault of the driver and by actions that are not the fault of the driver, say for example, a garbage truck hits the car and causes the car to veer into the fence.

    In design, you can't assign blame ahead of time and arrange things in a way that jeopardize lives just because people end up somewhere they aren't supposed to be. You don't have to be psychic or predict the future, but you have to take into account foreseeable events. A vehicle leaving the roadway is a foreseeable event that doesn't require a crystal ball. It will happen.

    If somebody built a stationary object illegally in the clear zone with no thought other than "screw 'em - if they hit it, it's their fault cause they couldn't keep it between the lines" and my wife lost control and struck this object and was burned alive, lawsuit is definitely the bare minimum of what would happen.

    1: What is the definition of clear zone?

    The Roadside Design Guide defines a clear zone as the total roadside border area, starting at the edge of the traveled way, available for safe use by errant vehicles. This area may consist of a shoulder, a recoverable slope, a non-recoverable slope, and/or a clear run-out area. The desired minimum width is dependent upon traffic volumes and speeds and on the roadside geometry. Simply stated, it is an unobstructed, relatively flat area beyond the edge of the traveled way that allows a driver to stop safely or regain control of a vehicle that leaves the traveled way.

    A recoverable slope is a slope on which a motorist may, to a greater or lesser extent, retain or regain control of a vehicle by slowing or stopping. Slopes flatter than 1V:4H are generally considered recoverable. A non-recoverable slope is a slope which is considered traversable but on which an errant vehicle will continue to the bottom. Embankment slopes between 1V:3H and 1V:4H may be considered traversable but non-recoverable if they are smooth and free of fixed objects. A clear run-out area is the area at the toe of a non-recoverable slope available for safe use by an errant vehicle. Slopes steeper than 1V:3H are not considered traversable and are not considered part of the clear zone.

    2:Where can I find information on clear zone dimensions?

    The current edition of the AASHTO Roadside Design Guide presents information on the latest state-of-the-practice in roadside safety. It presents procedures to determine a recommended minimum clear zone on tangent sections of roadway with variable side slopes and adjustments for horizontal curvature.

    The AASHTO A Policy on Geometric Design of Highways and Streets (Green Book) enumerates a clear zone value for two functional classes of highway. For local roads and streets, a minimum clear zone of 7 to 10 feet is considered desirable on sections without curb. In the discussion on collectors without curbs, a 10-foot minimum clear zone is recommended. The general discussion on Cross-section Elements also indicates a clear zone of 10 ft. for low-speed rural collectors and rural local roads should be provided.

    3:What is the definition of horizontal clearance?

    Horizontal clearance is the lateral offset distance from the edge of the traveled way, shoulder or other designated point to a vertical roadside element. These dimensional values are not calculated, and are not intended to constitute a clear zone. They are intended to provide a roadside environment that is not likely to have an adverse affect on motorists' using the roadway. These lateral offsets provide clearance for mirrors on trucks and buses that are in the extreme right lane of a facility and for opening curbside doors of parked vehicles, as two examples.

    4:What are some examples of roadside elements requiring horizontal clearance?

    Curbs, walls, barriers, piers, sign and signal supports, mature trees, landscaping items, and power poles are primary examples of the type of features that can affect a driver's speed or lane position if located too close to the roadway edge. Other specific examples can be found in the Cross Section Elements, Local Roads and Streets, Collector Roads and Streets, Rural and Urban Arterials, Freeways, and Intersections chapters of the Green Book.

    The AASHTO A Policy on Design Standards - Interstate System also contains a discussion on horizontal clearance in the section Horizontal Clearance to Obstructions.

    5:Is clear zone a controlling criterion?

    No. Controlling criteria are 13 items or elements in the NHS design standards that require a formal design exception when the adopted minimum value is not met on a project. The list of controlling criteria was developed to insure that deviations below the adopted value for a critical element were adequately considered in design of a project. When the original list was developed in 1985, clear zone was considered to be synonymous with horizontal clearance. Subsequently, in 1990, following adoption of the Roadside Design Guide, it was decided that clear zone width would no longer be considered as an element requiring a formal design exception. In the rulemaking to adopt the Roadside Design Guide, it was determined that clear zone width should not be defined by a fixed, nationally applicable value. The various numbers in the guide associated with clear zone are not considered as exact but as ranges of values within which judgment should be exercised in making design decisions. Objects or terrain features that fall within the appropriate clear zone are typically shielded so a design exception is not needed. The FHWA believes that a consistent design approach, guided by past crash history and a cost-effectiveness analysis is the most responsible method to determine appropriate clear zone width.

    While clear zone is not a controlling criterion for purposes of applying the Green Book to the National Highway System, an exception to a clear zone for a project does need to be noted, approved and documented in the same manner as exceptions to other non-controlling criteria when the established value is not met. The documentation may be included in project notes of meetings or other appropriate means.

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  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodybagger View Post
    Cars will leave the roadway, both by actions that are the fault of the driver and by actions that are not the fault of the driver, say for example, a garbage truck hits the car and causes the car to veer into the fence.

    In design, you can't assign blame ahead of time and arrange things in a way that jeopardize lives just because people end up somewhere they aren't supposed to be. You don't have to be psychic or predict the future, but you have to take into account foreseeable events. A vehicle leaving the roadway is a foreseeable event that doesn't require a crystal ball. It will happen.

    If somebody built a stationary object illegally in the clear zone with no thought other than "screw 'em - if they hit it, it's their fault cause they couldn't keep it between the lines" and my wife lost control and struck this object and was burned alive, lawsuit is definitely the bare minimum of what would happen.
    On the same note, in Texas, any FM or Hwy has a 30 to 60 foot clear zone, if something like the metal mailbox is built, its usually removed by the State asap. It also applies to people that park cars on the ROW, if you hit it, its the owners fault because they parked it in a bad spot, and you will recover your losses.

  8. #18

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    Wow thanks for all the great replies guys, it sounds like overall, if i build the fence behind the clear zone, into the property, i will not be liable for some idiot who happens to hit my fence.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lodi, CA
    Posts
    1,287

    Default

    Liable?????? heck, I'm just hoping some dumb jerk will run into my H-beam planter, hard enough to dent it, then I can sue HIM, or his estate, (more likely), then retire off the proceeds.

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