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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
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    Default Figure this out...

    Another head scratcher...

    We all know that oil and water will not mix. If you can get it to mix it wont stay mixed for long. Right? Right.

    So what happens when you mix Argon and Helium inside the bottle?
    Would logic not dictate that Argon sink to the bottom and Helium float to the top of the bottle even though they are under pressure. For the same matter what about CO2 and Argon or any other gas mix out there.
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    I live in Cheraw, South Carolina
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    Default

    I believe you stumped everybody with this question. I guess I will have to get out my old chemistry book to try and figure this one out.
    6010
    If I had know I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    694

    Default

    No, they will not separate while under pressure.

  4. #4

    Default

    Engloid:

    I disagree with you on this, but not because I am any kind of an expert. Let me explain.

    A couple of years ago when I first got my MM251 I got a 300CF tank of 75/25 with it. I had the same question as SignWave, and questioned my Airgas rep as to how with the tank sitting still on my welder for a long time the gases would not separate. I reasoned that CO2 is heavier than Argon, and that would happen. Airgas rep said that yes, it would, but their 75/25 tanks contained a "mixing tube" which caused the gas to be drawn out correctly mixed. I never did fully understand this, and could find no one with Airgas that could show, or explain the mixing tube to me.

    Fast forward. I welded the entire tank of gas and the arc characteristics did not change from start to finish. Emptied tank. Went over to Airgas to exchange and they have no 300 CF tanks of 75/25, but they gave me an 80 CF tank of 75/25 to use until the big tanks came in. Hooked it up and the arc was completely different. Different color arc, much hotter and more penetration. I figured I had forgotten how to weld. Two days of this I call my Airgas guy and explain to him what I am seeing. Go outside, he says, and see if there is a round green sticker on the tank that says "dip tube." I did and there was. He says that they have mistakenly filled tanks with 75/25 with a dip tube, I am pulling off the bottom of the cylinder, and am getting pure CO2. Take it back to AirGas, get a 300 CF with mixing tube, and it is back to welding as normal.

    So, first I disagree that pressure will prevent different weight gasses from separating. Second, my experience as stated above would seem to indicate that they do. Now I am not trying to be rude or pick a fight here, but to say that there is a lot that I do not know. And hopefully someone will come along that can clarify if there is actually a mixing tube that draws gas out of a mixed gas cylinder or not, and whether two different weight gasses in a cylinder under pressure will separate according to weight. As usual, I may be very wrong.

    Adios----

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
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    304

    Default

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5232017.html

    maybe this will help a little...

    SSS
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    605

    Default

    I figured that there had to be some sort of way to mix the gases together.

    Im sure Boyles laws come into play somewhere too.
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

    Miller 251/30A spool
    Syncro200
    Spectrum 625
    O/A
    Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
    Standard modern lathe
    Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
    horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
    Roland XC540 PRO III
    54" laminator
    hammer and screwdriver (most used)
    little dog
    pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    DFW area
    Posts
    180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SignWave View Post
    So what happens when you mix Argon and Helium inside the bottle?
    Would logic not dictate that Argon sink to the bottom and Helium float to the top of the bottle even though they are under pressure.
    Darn imteresting. And well answered too..

    But it brings to mind:
    Do they use different (SCUBA tank) cylinders and mixing tubes for 'Mixed gas', deep sea/saturation divers who have Helium mixed in with thier compressed air?

    .
    "Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
    I doubt we'll see either of their likes again".

    Circa 1920.
    Author:
    Unknown US Coast Guard unit Commander.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    ****inson ND
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    557

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post
    Darn imteresting. And well answered too..

    But it brings to mind:
    Do they use different (SCUBA tank) cylinders and mixing tubes for 'Mixed gas', deep sea/saturation divers who have Helium mixed in with thier compressed air?

    .
    They use nitrogen generaly when mixing gases and no the tanks are not different, just standard SCUBA tanks.

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