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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Posts
    304

    Default Ideas on winch cage/ hydraulic PTO

    I finally bought a new truck (ok, new to me...'99 International 9100). One of my projects for this winter is to put a winch that I've had sitting in the barn for several years waiting for me to get a truck big enough for it. It's a 30Klbs Braden mechanical drive PTO unit. Age....not a clue. Anyway, my plan is to mount it behind the cab. I've seen a thousand trucks with winches mounted like that, but never really paid attention to how they were built. Anybody ever built up a cage and/or headache rack to go along with one. I'd be open to design ideas and especially pictures.

    Also, I'm debating whether or not to build up the PTO system myself. My plan it to do a hydraulic pump driven from the transmission (10sp Rockwell, I can provide more specifics if someone needs them) then plumb the other parts and couple a motor to the input shaft of the winch. This way I can have variable, reversible power to it. Also, I'll have hydraulic power for other things down the line if the need ever arises. The biggest kicker is that I can work on hydraulics, but I've never built an entire system from scratch. Anybody know of a good website that cover the 101's of hy design?

    SSS
    Bobcat 250, MM 210, Syncrowave 180, Spectrum 375
    Cat 242B Skid Steer, Challenger (Cat/Agco) MT275
    1 Thessalonians 4:11-12

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default Now your talking my language

    Cool. Winch rig ups are my specialty. More than happy to help out. Winch guards can be made out of almost anything. Probably the two most popular up here are 2" square tubing 3/16" wall for the lighter rigups and 3" sch 80 pipe for the SOW bed trucks.

    Any thoughts yet on how to attach winch to frame? Winch on subframe or direct onto truck frame? Tie-down bolts or shear plates? Are you using 44W Mild Steel or QT-100 for winch mounts?

    I will give offer up a word of caution using hydraulic orbital motors to power up the winch worm gear..... Not really a good idea. Most mechanical winches have a double-reduction built into the jackshafts because of the different sized sprockets. I agree completely with the concept of what you are trying to do, but we've tried it up here and it really doesn't work. You end up either sacrificing speed or power. Yes, I know that through valving etc. that you can have different flow and speed of orbital motors, but this will not give you the results that you are looking for. Some winches, depending on year, are eligible for a hydraulic drive upgrade which replaces some parts on the worm gear side of the case, and converts the winch over to hydraulic with all the benfits you already mentioned.

    Most of my pictures are brutally huge but I'll try to get some posted on here for you to look at.

    Later,
    Jason

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Ocean City, Maryland
    Posts
    951

    Default

    Thats going to be a cool tuck steve, post some pics of it. We install Braden PD18s [all removed from older trucks] on the front of our new Buckets and digger derricks. All are hydraulic driven but we have tandem pumps to use for power. One section runs the aerial unit the other the front winch. We use air over hydraulic on the controls so we can operate the winch from a couple different places. I designed this for my company about 12 yrs ago and the aerial manufactors took pictures and now offer them that way. I mean the air/hydraulic parts were already around , it just seemed nobody put then on a bucket truck like that. Used to use cables. Baum Hydraulics has a ton of stuff like that. Does the truck already have a PTO on it?? If so the shaft driven winch would be cheaper than hydraulic. Unless you really need the hydraulics for something else I'd make it shaft driven I think.
    Scott
    HMW [Heavy Metal welding]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Posts
    304

    Default

    I'll definently post pics as the project comes along. The 9100 is currently set up as a day cab, single axle, low profile tractor. For now, I just replaced the traditional goose neck coupler on my main trailer with a king pin unit. That way I can use the truck while I'm building it. My overall goal for the project is to pull the fifth wheel plate and replace it with a regular gooseneck ball. Then put the winch just behind the cab and from there back built a custom flat bed for it. Probably put a pintle hitch for the "dozer hauler" down the line and regular ball hitch for bumper pull trailers. It's going to be my super, super duty pick up...with factory air ride. My reason for picking this truck was many fold. Originally I was just going to get a one ton or a 450. But... those are $40K new and close to that used. Also if you find one reasonable, it's usually trashed out. Since this is only going to be a work truck and not a daily driver I figured why not go for the gusto. Used heavy truck are very reasonable. I gave around $12k for it. All new tires, new clutch, all new brakes. It has 528,000 miles on it, but I figure I can get another 200,000 out of it before major repairs. It was a company owned and maintained truck so I have all the records on it. With a 350hp M-11 cummins and a 10sp, it should perform very well for what I need it to.

    I am starting to lean more toward the shaft drive pto. I'll have to come up with some sort of reversing gear box, though.

    SSS
    Bobcat 250, MM 210, Syncrowave 180, Spectrum 375
    Cat 242B Skid Steer, Challenger (Cat/Agco) MT275
    1 Thessalonians 4:11-12

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Ocean City, Maryland
    Posts
    951

    Thumbs up

    That sounds like a geat deal. Funny parts for some of the medium/heavy trucks are cheaper than the newer smaller trucks. Things like brakes and suspension parts will last you forever Why the reversing gear box?? The winch does not have a gear box that can not reverse the direction?? Or do you want to use the pto for a couple different things?

    Good luck, keep us posted
    Scott
    HMW [Heavy Metal welding]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default

    You've lost me on the reversing gearbox????? Check your transmission for PTO mounts. Should have 6 or 8-bolt covers. I can't remember off-hand the part # for the 6-bolt but the 8-bolt PTO from Chelsea is an 863. They can be driven either direction and are reversible. Can be operated by cable or pneumatics, your choice. This should solve your issue with reversing the winch. It may be a touch of overkill, but I would recommend using a Velvac (I'll find the part# if you want it) dual acting air cylinder to activate the dog-clutch on the winch drum. Just an ordinary service only brake pot works well for the band brake.

    Just because you brought up changing over hitches, I built a tow box in June for a customer that should be of use to you. It has both a pop-up ball type gooseneck hitch and also a flip up Binkley mini 5th wheel rated for over 35,000 lbs. Both hitches fold down out of sight when not in use for clear deck loading. Both hitches share the same coupling centerline so all you have to do after fabbing it up is locate it on your frame in relation to your axle centerline and attach to the subframe for your deck. I forgot to mention the the hold-down bolts for the Binkley wheel, as well as the trailer plug-in are in the well where the Binkley flips into.

    Later,
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 09-23-2007 at 09:58 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default More Pin Box details

    Binkley welded to hinge plate using FCAW.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default More Pin Box Details

    Gooseneck ball hitch & Binkley hinge details
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 09-23-2007 at 10:00 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default More Pin Box Details

    Side View of Binkley Flip Over to rest of Pin Box

    Hope the pictures help. Pin box is made from 3" x 3" x 1/4" tubing. Binkley hinge plate is 1/2" 44W steel, more than enough for this application. Pop up gooseneck hitch is by Buyers. Fifth wheel is by Binkley, a division of Holland Fifth Wheels and is rated for I believe 35,000lbs. Binkley welded to hinge plate is FCAW. Gooseneck hitch to pin box is FCAW. Everything else was GMAW. Hinge for Binkley is 1" Cold-rolled with 5 pieces of pipe that just slide over it arranged in a staggered finger joint. Some of the dimensions are on the tape in the photos. Just my way of keeping all the info together. If you require any further info on this, just let me know.

    Later,
    Jason
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grande Prairie, Alberta Canada
    Posts
    729

    Default Some winch & h/a rack photos

    Fist two photos are of Tulsa Ruffneck 60 (30 ton) winch mounted as a second winch on a SOW bed truck.

    Photo 929 is of the primary/secondary winch setup for the SOW as viewed from the deck looking towards the rear of the cab.

    Next photo is of primary winch & h/a rack. Winch is a Braden 125which is rated for 125,000 lbs single line pull or 62.5M ton. Take note of the checker plate drum guard installed between the winch guard and winch drum so the winch line cannot get outside the drum and cause the operator a bunch of grief.

    Last photo is of driver side pneumatic controls of Braden 125. Shown is the Velvac air cylinder controlling the dog-clutch on winch. Care should be taken when orientating the pneumatic cylinder to operate the dog-clutch, as one direction is stronger than the other. You want the stronger action holding the dog-clutch into the winch drum. Cylinder is stronger in extension as you have the full surface area of the piston to act on. In contraction, you have less surface area on the piston face because you have to subtract the area taken up by the push-rod. I'm sure for your application, either orientation is fine, I just wanted to supply the correct info for anyone building these rigups for industrial use.

    Also shown in last photo is a little "extra" that I build onto winches for operator convenience. Instead of using the OEM band brake system, I cut the splines of a normal brake "S-cam" and weld it onto the OEM hex rod. This allows me to install a non-ratcheting brake slack adjuster into the band brake system so the operator has infinite adjustment in seconds with a 9/16" wrench. Slack adjuster and band brake are actuated by service pot in photo that I mentioned in a previous post. Not shown in picture is the brake spring that I usually mount between a bracket on the service pot to an empty hole in the top of the slack adjuster to help the band brake to release. The return springs in the service pots are really tiny and do not exert much force, so over time the band brake tends to drag.

    Later,

    Before I forget, all the winch guards and h/a racks shown are made out of 3" sch80 pipe. You can use whatever you have handy. If you require some assistance later laying out the winch guards etc, let me know and I can walk you through how to figure out the length of all the pieces and all the mitre cuts for the style that you want.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 09-23-2007 at 11:54 AM.

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