Performance Cryogenics

[FusionKing]

I understand "cryo," but I think it is a joke. Heat treating is a much better solution to a broken gear problem. I worked for a Subaru Race Shop that is the soul importer of PPG gears from Aussy. Look them up. They are the strongest gears period. We tested all other manufactures in real race cars and they all broke. Only PPG held up to the test. "Cryo" failed just as fast as a stock gear did. I'm sure for other applications "cryo" works great, but not in a manual transmission. This was my bread and butter for many years, so trust me when I say it is all in the metallurgy and heat treating. They make gears for a wide variety of applications. Very expensive, but if you make the power and it holds for run after run after run etc.... then it is worth it.

James

Cryo IS metallurgy and heat treating.....we did stuff for NASA even....you do not B.S. those guys. They went thru our system with a fine tooth comb. And used an independent contrator to do that as well.
Cryo will only benefit if there is a problem with the process used prior or there is sufficient carbon to react to the process.(on steel)
There are/was many jack-leg people doing cryo when I got involved just like there are many jack-leg welders and mechanics. Not all are bad and I doubt your experience would not have been enuff to say whether it is a joke or not IMO.
It just didn't work on what you tryed with who you used.
There was many things we got phenomenal results on. YMMV

[Aerometalworker]

Yep FK,
Cryogenic treating of certain carbon steels, is only beneficial if there was a property left from the "hot" heat treatment that is the direct cause of the failure. The first thing you have to do is determine the root cause of the failure. Did the crack initiate on the surface, or sub surface? What doesnt the gear pattern check look like? Is it failing at the root of the tooth, or in a contact area? Or even more simply, is the crack from a form of microstructure embrittlement, or on a larger scale forming from a surface defect, even a tiny corrosion pit. Is it failing from sheer mechanical overloading, or high cycle fatigue?

Beware the salesmen, or "engineer" at a company that sells a process, for they will rarely tell you in wont work, or offer a better solution they dont sell.
That goes for any company that sells a process, coating, painting, rust prevention, (cryo) treatment, welding, polish, wax etc. etc. Do your own research and deterline for yourself what process needs to be used.

-Aaron

[StillBoostin]

Yep FK,
Cryogenic treating of certain carbon steels, is only beneficial if there was a property left from the "hot" heat treatment that is the direct cause of the failure. The first thing you have to do is determine the root cause of the failure. Did the crack initiate on the surface, or sub surface? What doesnt the gear pattern check look like? Is it failing at the root of the tooth, or in a contact area? Or even more simply, is the crack from a form of microstructure embrittlement, or on a larger scale forming from a surface defect, even a tiny corrosion pit. Is it failing from sheer mechanical overloading, or high cycle fatigue?

Beware the salesmen, or "engineer" at a company that sells a process, for they will rarely tell you in wont work, or offer a better solution they dont sell.
That goes for any company that sells a process, coating, painting, rust prevention, (cryo) treatment, welding, polish, wax etc. etc. Do your own research and deterline for yourself what process needs to be used.

-Aaron

Great post!



Ask and you shall receive.
http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/index-html.htm

And for your information Subarus put down 400-800 ft/lbs to all 4 wheels. Not just 2 wheels, there is a lot more shock load to the gear then you think.

Like I said if you read my post Fusion King, It might work on other applications, but differeny metals do not react well will cryo. That is why I said Metallurgy. Every metal is different. PPG uses some exotic metal that is harder then the metal used in you impact socket and uses a special process to heat it and make it stronger.

JAmes

James

[Bulldog]

WOW 400 to 800 ftlbs of torque! That's pretty good. That's in the range of what a stock Cummins puts down... Now how about we double that... Oh by the way what does one of those Subaru's weight? 2-3000 lbs. Hey how about we triple then ad 1000 lbs to that then hook a trailer that weights in at about 25000 pds. Lets see the last time I hit the dyno my truck made 684 hp and 1401 ftlbs of torque on just fuel no juice. (with a slipping clutch)Oh and by the way my truck is a dually and I run 35's. It will break the 4 back tires loose at 40 mph.
I'll call PPG Monday to see what they say.
Can I drop your name??? Maybe I'll get a better deal...
Bulldog

[StillBoostin]

WOW 400 to 800 ftlbs of torque! That's pretty good. That's in the range of what a stock Cummins puts down... Now how about we double that... Oh by the way what does one of those Subaru's weight? 2-3000 lbs. Hey how about we triple then ad 1000 lbs to that then hook a trailer that weights in at about 25000 pds. Lets see the last time I hit the dyno my truck made 684 hp and 1401 ftlbs of torque on just fuel no juice. (with a slipping clutch)Oh and by the way my truck is a dually and I run 35's. It will break the 4 back tires loose at 40 mph.
I'll call PPG Monday to see what they say.
Can I drop your name??? Maybe I'll get a better deal...
Bulldog

I see you are a funny guy and like to pick on foreign cars. I only was trying to give my expert advice. If you call them I'm sure they could educate you on their production process. It doesn't matter what vehicle you have, the process to make the best gear is the same no matter your application. They do make custom one off gears, maybe they could make a set for your truck. I'm a nobody, so I couldn't get you a deal. If the gear wasn't made and designed with cryo in the original process then it isn't going to help.

James

[Aerometalworker]

WOW 400 to 800 ftlbs of torque! That's pretty good. That's in the range of what a stock Cummins puts down... Now how about we double that... Oh by the way what does one of those Subaru's weight? 2-3000 lbs. Hey how about we triple then ad 1000 lbs to that then hook a trailer that weights in at about 25000 pds. Lets see the last time I hit the dyno my truck made 684 hp and 1401 ftlbs of torque on just fuel no juice. (with a slipping clutch)Oh and by the way my truck is a dually and I run 35's. It will break the 4 back tires loose at 40 mph.
I'll call PPG Monday to see what they say.
Can I drop your name??? Maybe I'll get a better deal...
Bulldog

Bulldog,
Everything is relative, the subaru might have less torque, and less weight, but id guess the gear sets are also a lot smaller. So to fairly compare, you would have to do a "unit-pressure" and "surface-speed" calculation for the gear set in question. You might find the power density transmitted through the subaru gear set higher then yours.
Now stop and think about racing boats, 1200+ HP through a roughly 6" diameter "ring" gear. You want to talk to guys who can design a production gear set that handles incredible power density.....they are it. Not to mention they spend a lot of time at WOT...not cruising down the highway. Just some things to think about.

-Aaron

[engnerdan]

Bulldog,
Have you looked to see if someone offers a straight cut gear set for 6th gear? My friend rebuilds truck transmissions and he thought there was someone who offered one. He is going to take a look Monday and see if he can find out who. They would be a little nosier but would be a lot stronger.

-Dan

[StillBoostin]

Bulldog,
Everything is relative, the subaru might have less torque, and less weight, but id guess the gear sets are also a lot smaller. So to fairly compare, you would have to do a "unit-pressure" and "surface-speed" calculation for the gear set in question. You might find the power density transmitted through the subaru gear set higher then yours.
Now stop and think about racing boats, 1200+ HP through a roughly 6" diameter "ring" gear. You want to talk to guys who can design a production gear set that handles incredible power density.....they are it. Not to mention they spend a lot of time at WOT...not cruising down the highway. Just some things to think about.

-Aaron

Thanks Aaron I was going to mention that our gear sets are very small. Your tranny prob 3-5 times the size of mine. So it is all relative.
As engnerdan said. Go staight tooth, but get dog engagement. It illiminate the syncro's. Only need to use the clutch in 1st or Reverse to get moving after that you just gas it between shifts. A little violent but one heck of a feeling. I hope someone makes a gearset for you. Have you tried any Diesel Truck Forums. I'm sure there are many of them out there.

James

[Badd00SS]

I'll take a look at that Bad. My problem is my truck is HEAVY and I haul HEAVY loads with the torque that my truck makes it's not hard to see why I take the teeth off the gears. The NV5600 is a very strong trans but when the torque gets over 1200 ftlbs over drive just can't take it. I'm hoping that this cyro deal works out. I just installed a DD clutch and it wont slip like the South Bend fe was. I should find out pretty soon if the new gears will hold up or not.
See ya,
Bulldog

I hear ya... I used to to fairly heavy as well, (18000-20000)lbs with a Duramax. The south bend was slipping? I heard they were great a clutch, never used one though.. Anyway, good luck with it, hope it turns out well.
Wish me luck too however, this season I'll be dropping the hammer another 1200 rpm higher...

[Bulldog]

Hey guys,
Aaron,
I agree with you 100%. It's all relative I just found Boostins comments kinda funny so I wanted to clear things up for him a little. I have been talking to a guy that builds pulling transmission (all straight cut gears)but he only does 4 speed's. I thought about going that way and use a gear vendor overdrive unit. I'm not sure if the vendor would hold the power. The smart thing would be just cut the power back some.
Hey BadOOSS what ya got in the DIRTY MAX. How much power ya puttin down? I have a good friend that makes 550 -600 and his truck is a 3/4 single wheel. His truck runs 12.50 -12.60 in the quarter. South Bend makes a great clutch but the fe is a single disk and is only rated for 550 hp. Peter though it may hold but no way. It will hold with the flux injectors and the Smarty but when I bring the TST on line and the turbo lights forget it. The clutch is a 3600 lb DD so chances are it will hold. Now how long will the new Cryoed gear last... That's the question.
Topper