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  1. #11
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    Mar 2007
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    Mobile,Al
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    108

    Default

    In my thinking they build screw type air compressors,Theyre four wheels that turn .You have a storage Air tank ,which could replace the fuel tank.Wheels are turning you would be replaceing the volume.

  2. #12
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    Dec 2006
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    Traer, IA
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    317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bdenney29 View Post
    I agree willy....But,for some reason when oil goes up ,the price of the corn rises with it.Its like they are trying to equal out the price for the alternate way.I dont know the answer but times are starting to look very bad.Were too dependant upon the oil.

    Of course it does - it takes oil (diesel, chemicals) to produce corn, beans or any other crop. The cost of production goes up - so does the price.
    the world is complaining that we are taking a lot of our corn crop to produce ethenol (which I dont think is the answer, and I am no expert by any means). China doesnt have enough food to feed their population the way it is. We feed them for probably far less than it costs us to produce (just a hunch - but someone is getting rich of this) just to build a work force of people that given the opportunity would trample us without thought. All we have to show for this is high steel prices, record high fuel prices, and downright friggin garbage for products coming over on the boats. We are being held hostage on the price of a gallon of gas - we need to hold them hostage on the price of food. This is all a little extreme I know but the majority of foriegn nations are directly affecting the American way of life and to tell you the truth - I'm darn sick of giving OUR country away

    Now my blood pressure is thru the roof......let's get back to welding someting

  3. #13
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    Sep 2005
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    2,250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bdenney29 View Post
    In my thinking they build screw type air compressors,Theyre four wheels that turn .You have a storage Air tank ,which could replace the fuel tank.Wheels are turning you would be replaceing the volume.
    The problem that can't be overcome with perpetual motion is that it takes energy to produce energy, and then you add resistance to one side of the equation (air, gravity and so on) and there goes the equilibrium you need to make it work.
    To all who contribute to this board.
    My sincere thanks , Pete.

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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Default

    In order for your idea to function you would need HP air. Basically you are building a "steam" engine. One of your options would be some sort of piston engine of which the most efficient were the triple expansion engines that continued to use the expanding gas to continue to produce power by using larger cylinders. These were large and heavy, the reason they were discarded for war ships. The other is a turbine type engine. The piston type engine could use LP steam but you were limited in power. HP steam increased the power in piston and turbine engines, but steam expands at a much higher rate than air so very HP air would be required to make these work.

    A screw compressor makes large volumes of low pressure air. If I remember when I worked at the compressor shop about 125 psi max. The HP required to drive these machine was fairly high. I can remember working on 150 hp 3 phase monsters. Also the require large quantities of oil in order to function. The air is forced into the oil and then compressed, the air is then removed from the oil and the oil is cooled and the process repeated. The weight of the oils and the compressor alone would limit it's efficiency.

    Now you would get in to loss of energy due to heat, friction and so on. It just won't work.

    If you want an idea of an air engine, check out old torpedoes. Some of the early ones were pneumatic. Basically a turbine run on HP gas. Limited speed and limited range. The steam torpedoes replaced them. The air was now used to help heat steam which ran the turbine.


    bdenney29 you would be better off putting sails on your car and making it wind powered. Keep you mast under 13'6 to clear wires and bridges. It still wont be teribly practical, but at least it would function in some situations.
    Last edited by DSW; 04-28-2008 at 10:16 PM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    157

    Default Thermodynamics

    You can not engineer anything that will completely recharge itself using its own inertia. There would have to be an outside source to compensate for heat and frictional losses.

    This is basically the reason that you cannot create a perpetual motion machine. The second law of thermodynamics basically states that within a closed system there is a continual loss of enegy. Entropy.

    Pneumatic devices, although very useful in many applications, are not necessarily energy efficient. It would be interesting to see how much energy an impact requires when you calculate the electricity required to compress the air compared to the amount used by an electric impact. There is a great deal of heat given off when compressing air. Heat equals waste.

    What is a totaly underutalized recoup of energy is in the heat lost to braking. Although you could never recoup enough to completely power the same vehicle, think about potentially how much energy could be recovered if everytime a car, truck, train, etc., hits the brakes, that energy is transfered back to the power grid.

    The energy can be created mechanically by driving generators/alternators or electromagnetically through induction.

    If every single vehicle was so equiped, we might be coming home at night to plug our cars in to discharge the batteries and collect our credit back from the electric companies who now would require that much less fuel to create electricity

    John
    Last edited by Handy560; 04-30-2008 at 06:42 AM.
    John

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  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Colorado
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    673

    Unhappy

    I heard this somewhere, take it or leave it. In the 100 years since we've been using oil to run the world, we've used approximately 1 trillion barrels of oil. There are estimated to be another 15 trillion barrels of oil available. That's more than 1000 years of available oil to run the world. With these estimated numbers, mankind has plenty of time to come up with solar, wind or any other alternative, financially viable power.

    Oil runs the WORLD economy, whether we like it or not. Fuel prices are dictated by the world economy, not by the big oil companies. With china and india now using cars like we do, prices are going up.

    We need to be building nuclear power plants as fast as we can. And if we don't start drilling in ANWR and the gulf of Mexico, America is done. But the eco-freaks won't let us.
    RETIRED desk jockey.

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  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
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    605

    Default something evil this way comes..

    I dont know what going on in the world but rest assured its not for your benifit. We are ADDICTED to oil like a junkei to heroin. Think about it. Could you go a day a week or a month without using gas or fuel? Its so bloody hard...

    As for biodiesel. This Sh*T is worse for the environment than dino diesel...But hey someones makin a killin of of it.. and your takin it in the a$$ all the way... We all are..

    And using electricty is probalby the best solution to our problems...
    who killed the electric car?? seen the movie? heard of Telsa motor car company? electricity can be generarated from sunshine. even on cloudy days.. In fact cloudy days are better because light is more evenlydistirbuted a solar panel can charge a bank of batteries in a day. run it through an inverted and you have AC that will run your appliances.. maybe even your welder if you build the system rignt.

    I'll bet you a box of donuts that if we were to start burning hydrogen on a grand scale, that too would affect the environemnt in its own way... how, im not quite sure bu tmy head is telling me it would have to do with too much moisture n the air...

    We truly are in a conundrum. I try to burn as little gasoline as possible. I ride a single cylinder m/c when i can (rain or shine or ice & snow.) When i have to deliver something I have my WTF truck with its over size V6 . I know ive had it up to my hat with the ever higher prices i have to pay for gas. every time i go to the pump its more money. Dont knwo abou tyou but this affect my pocket book. Soemthing is very wrong in the world. some can see, but it most cannot.. my 'good friend" has a saying that really bend me the wrong way... " I try not to look at the price of gas.. I just put it in and pay"
    he then drives all over the half acre...with no particular place to go. what a waste..of time money and life.. okay i could go on forever too so I =better stop.

    think alternates because gasoline is a dinosaur..really, or so weve been led to believe..
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

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  8. #18

    Default

    Look into the study of thermodynamics instead of reading that hooplah about free energy and perpetual motion. The kind of people that write that s h it are the same ones that write the conspiracy theory BS. Please don't pollute this forum with said BS. I agree with DSW and the like and I can't stand to see misinformed people ranting about their grand scheme to save the world's environment. The answer doesn't lie in one solution. There are solutions and the engineers of the world are working it out. If you want to contribute then start recycling.

    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    near rochester NY
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    9,881

    Default

    there is a comp. producing air powered cars, no they are not perpetual motion. yes electricity is needed to pump up the car to go. can this be done by solar, yes, is it?? most likely not.
    as for only using 1 trillion gal in 100 years, we now have well over 1000X the auto's and gas users that we had at the start of the previous 100 year study. so we now use 100 years worth of gas in 10 or less compared to that of 1919.
    the electric car was invented about the same time as the gas powered one. but gas power was more efficient and cheaper. how do we change this now ?? mas production of electric cars is the only way to reduce the $$ of the battery's to run them. the $ of the battery's right not is as high or higher then the cost to produce the rest of the car. so the battery is the downfall of the electric car. also look at your battery powered drill, how many charges be for the battery will no longer hold a charge. then what?? buy a new battery, in most cases you can buy a new drill with 2 new battery (usually in a higher Voltage) for less $ than it is to replace the 2 battery's that came with the drill. so now your 3 year old car needs new battery's, what do you do ??? trash the hole car as the battery's are more than a new car. my 1951 GMC truck can be made good as new for $800 on a new gas motor, how many sets of $15,000 battery's do you think it would have gone threw ??? its still running now on its 2nd motor. find a set of battery's that last 25 years and power a car and you will be the auto industry giant.

    seems like every answer has its negative and positive. right now alternative options are not cost effective. but as they become more main stream the $ will go down. right now only those with big $ can afford them, but those people are not hurt by the fuel $. so it is really the eco freaks that are pushing the alternative options. with a little luck they will push enough to get the $$ down.

    am i willing to go green, use a wind mill & soler power for my hose, accept a little less spunk in my car so it can be electric ?? shore, i would love to. but with a family of 4 and my income its just not an option due to the $ of the above mentioned.

    if we want to grow corn for fuel, fine do so. but use the corn we would be exporting to the oil nations to turn into fuel, not the corn we should be eating. charge opec nations $150 a barrel for corn, we have it, they don't. same thing as oil. if they want to hoard it so too should we. we could balance our budget if we gave nothing away for one year, the result would be world economic disaster, but we would be in the black. several years ago some one did a report on how much the U.S. gives in aid to other countries (people mag. i think) to keep it stable. so why is it that opec nations cant boost oil production to keep oil prices stable as world demand rises ? yes they will run out sooner, but there is no reason why we cant come up with a better option be for then if we chose to do so. the bad side is if they boost production, gas price comes down and every one stops talking about other options, so again good VS bad in all situations, or is it that it takes bad to make us do good ?? its global warming that should make us look to other options, not the price of oil, but its the price of oil that gets us looking and talking about it, not global warming????????

    ok my rant is done.

    so whats the answer ???? soler?? wind turbines ??? water turbines ???


    oh ya, lets not forget the ones that think wind turbines are ugly. its ok to melt the poler ice caps, but i don't want to have to look at some ugly turbine off the coast of my summer cottage in the Hampton's ??????????

    oops i said my rant was over. LOL
    thanks for the help
    ......or..........
    hope i helped

    feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. james@newyorkmetalart.com
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  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    298

    Default

    Air motors and air to motion and back are not efficient. Electron storage and conversion into and out of rotational motion has far surpassed mechanical energy storage methods such as compressed air. The amount of energy stored in a cubic foot of high pressure air is about the same as a table spoon of gas. You would need a real big tank to get any kind miles between fill ups.

    I don't understand the comment on the new Diesel motors. They are far more efficient than older motors. They produce more power per gallon than ever before and the best are well better than gas motors gallon for gallon. The newer direct injection diesels are far better at potential conversion than any consumer motors ever made and sold before. They turn more of the fuels potential energy into motion and less into waste heat than ever.
    The winning cars in ALMS racing are the Audi turbo direct injected diesels. Is the new truck and motor a lot bigger than the old one? Did the rig gain a bunch of weight?

    We have been and still are stupid in our energy use. We are in bed with nasty people in order to get more oil. We need to get off the oil kick and let them swap some oil for some of our abundant FOOD. We can feed ourselves and many others. Many oil producing countries cannot feed themselves. We need to build smart cars, houses and buildings and use the energy we have intelligently. Using some CFL lights is not going to do much of anything. We need to stop making stupid big cars and houses and buildings that waste energy.

    Energy? How much do you want? How about so much that the numbers are hard to write down. ALL the energy on the planet comes from and has always come from one place, the sun. All the stored energy in oil came from the sun. The wind the water is all driven by the sun. All the energy we could ever use is falling on us every day for free; all we need to do is catch it. More energy falls on us unused than we could ever get from all the oil ever refined. No green house gasses, no refining byproducts, no dams, no waste that is nasty for 10,000 years, no trucking or shipping it around. Catch it and use it to split water into Hydrogen fuel and Oxygen. Catch it and run our houses and buildings. Catch it when and where it shines and store it to use when we need it.

    We Americans can do anything when we put our minds and money to it. Let’s show the people with nothing but oil how it's done. Then ask them if they want to buy some of our abundant FOOD. Food does not fall out of the sky only energy does.
    Weekend wannab racer with some welders.

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