Miller Electric

Welding Discussion Forums

Home » Resources » Communities » Welding Discussion Forums
 
Miller Welding Discussion Forums - Powered by vBulletin

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 26
  1. #11

    Default

    TS-Off-Road

    What brand did you use?

    Jim

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Midland, Mi.
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by modela View Post
    TS-Off-Road

    What brand did you use?

    Jim
    Bosch 125HX-NG

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Midland, Mi.
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Handy560 View Post
    I am curious how well it does because I build houses in the Chicago area.

    It seems relative to your use and gpm requirements.

    I am very sure it works great for maybe one large bath and the kitchen or some other combination, but if you get into large baths with multiple shower heads, Jacuzzis and sevaral other baths etc... it all gets back to the gpm.

    Large units are are rated like 7 gpm at 45 degree rise, say from 60 to 105. If the incoming water is 40 in the winter you need a 90 degeree rise and the gpm falls to maybe the low 5's. I have done many baths that one shower head and a few body sprays and your at 10 gpm. not very green for sure, but you get the picture.

    Another consideration is the gas service. If you have adequate gas delivery, you stay at the specs. If you have a marginal supply and/or pressure, the performance starts to deteriorate. Example I saw the other day; plenty of hot water as long as the boiler was not firing at the same time.

    I have seen other builders use multiple units to overcome gpm limitations. This has its own issues with multiple flues, water piping from more than one location and more involved gas piping and gas service sizing...

    I think they are really coming along and are a great appliance for the right installation; definetely the trend for the future. I just wanted to make sure if someone decided to go for it, the would take the time to run the numbers.

    Let me know what kind of performance you are actually experiencing in those colder climates relative to the usage.

    Thanks,

    John

    I installed mine to save $$. It will supply a regular bath shower and the dishwasher or washing machine simultaneously. If I had a Jacuzzi tub or 3 baths with multiple shower-heads in each and dual dishwashers in my kitchen, I would not be so concerned with energy savings and it would obviously be pointless to use one of these units. For what they are inteded for, they work great!

    BTW, My water supply is a 2" ground well +or- 30psi.
    Last edited by TS-Off-Road; 03-04-2008 at 11:30 AM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    173

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Handy560 View Post
    I am curious how well it does because I build houses in the Chicago area.

    It seems relative to your use and gpm requirements.

    I am very sure it works great for maybe one large bath and the kitchen or some other combination, but if you get into large baths with multiple shower heads, Jacuzzis and sevaral other baths etc... it all gets back to the gpm.

    Large units are are rated like 7 gpm at 45 degree rise, say from 60 to 105. If the incoming water is 40 in the winter you need a 90 degeree rise and the gpm falls to maybe the low 5's. I have done many baths that one shower head and a few body sprays and your at 10 gpm. not very green for sure, but you get the picture.

    Another consideration is the gas service. If you have adequate gas delivery, you stay at the specs. If you have a marginal supply and/or pressure, the performance starts to deteriorate. Example I saw the other day; plenty of hot water as long as the boiler was not firing at the same time.

    I have seen other builders use multiple units to overcome gpm limitations. This has its own issues with multiple flues, water piping from more than one location and more involved gas piping and gas service sizing...

    I think they are really coming along and are a great appliance for the right installation; definetely the trend for the future. I just wanted to make sure if someone decided to go for it, the would take the time to run the numbers.

    Let me know what kind of performance you are actually experiencing in those colder climates relative to the usage.

    Thanks,

    John
    Being a retired engineer with time on my hands I did my homework like most things I buy I have researched well, very well. That said some of the questions you brought up I can address.

    Yes it does depend upon your use and the gpm requirements and of course the "temp rise".

    The unit I used the Nortiz 0751 can certainly do the job for the wife and I here at the house in AZ. Current water temp at the faucet is about 62 degrees. But I can assure you that the temp rises quickly, it is nearly 80 today and by mid-summer hot water is almost not needed as the cold water tap is no longer cold.

    The units can be stacked quite easily and any plumber that knows which way water flows can do the install. Meeting your requirements for the homes you build can be done without much difficulty. I would get with the Nortiz folks and discuss with them your goals. Additionally by the sound of the houses you build, don't waste your time looking at anything other than the Noritz unit.

    If you incorporate the tankless unit into the house plans there is a lot of money to be saved. 1) Hang the unit on an outside wall and save $$ on venting costs thru the roof. 2) Direct connect to the gas meter with a 1in pipe and keep the runs as short as possible. My run was only about 10 ft. I just punched thru the garage wall and ran it straight down the base of the garage for 8 ft and connected my flex-hose.

    Me and a Jeeping buddy did the install and saving the $800 per hour the idiot plumber wanted for the "high tech equipment", "you know it has a computer control and we need to install that." YEA, you sure do, the install manual says you NEED TO PLUG the friggin thing into a 110 wall socket and they give you a 10ft cord, or you can get the optional 25 ft coord...DUH

    Granted you do not have to plug in a gas hot water heater, and yes the unit is computer controlled, meaning you need to set the temp...real complicated, push the UP arrow to raise the temp and push the down arrow to lower it. And don't forget to push the On/Off buttom. Guess $800 per hour does buy what it used to

    and that is it!
    Don
    Scottsdale, AZ
    www.savagesun4x4.com

    MillerMatic 211 AS
    Hypertherm PowerMax30
    Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
    Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
    Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
    10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
    DeWalt Chop Saw
    Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
    12 Ton Shop Press
    Optrel Satellite Helmet
    Miller Elite Helmet

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fraser Valley, BC
    Posts
    593

    Default

    These inline heaters certainly look interesting. For our situation I don't think we could get away with using them solo, but we haved thought about installing one before our hot water heater as a preheater. The water coming into the house here gets mighty cold in the winter, we all enjoy our hot showers at the end of the day, and we don't exactly have water saver shower heads.

    Are there any electric versions out there, our house doesn't have natural gas?
    Dynasty 200DX, first generation
    Makita 5" grinder
    Makita 14" abrasive saw
    IR SS5L compressor
    Whole bunch of hand/air tools.
    and a wish list a mile long

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    157

    Default Code requirements...

    Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

    Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

    No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

    Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

    I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

    The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

    Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

    J

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    173

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Handy560 View Post
    Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

    Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

    No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

    Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

    I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

    The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

    Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

    J
    Interesting. And of course you bring many good points.

    My only question/concern would be on flex pipe to the (or in this case not to the) water-heater. Having lived all over the US I have never seen a hard piped water heater. In fact I have never see a hard piped MOVEABLE device (stove, water heater, dryer etc. In my mind that sounds just plain scary. Especially so in that so many water heaters are found in the garage. Tap that with the bumper of your car and what gives first the car or a 450 lb water heater.

    NOTE: If anyone wants any close ups or pics of something I did not get, just ask.
    Don
    Scottsdale, AZ
    www.savagesun4x4.com

    MillerMatic 211 AS
    Hypertherm PowerMax30
    Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
    Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
    Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
    10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
    DeWalt Chop Saw
    Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
    12 Ton Shop Press
    Optrel Satellite Helmet
    Miller Elite Helmet

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    157

    Default clarification...

    Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

    Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

    Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

    Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

    Dryer, same as stove/range.

    As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

    J

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    173

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Handy560 View Post
    Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

    Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

    Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

    Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

    Dryer, same as stove/range.

    As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

    J
    WOW, guess the plumbers union has a death grip on Chicago. Can only imagine what they charge...since I was quoted $800 per hour to do my Noritz tankless install. He is lucky I didn't punch out his front teeth so he could go pay a dentist to fix his mouth. Then he started BRAGGING about how easy of a job it was.
    Don
    Scottsdale, AZ
    www.savagesun4x4.com

    MillerMatic 211 AS
    Hypertherm PowerMax30
    Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
    Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
    Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
    10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
    DeWalt Chop Saw
    Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
    12 Ton Shop Press
    Optrel Satellite Helmet
    Miller Elite Helmet

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    157

    Default $$$

    $800 / hour? He's nuts...

    Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

    J

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Non-static method PhpQuickProfiler::getMicroTime() should not be called statically in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/pqp/classes/Console.php on line 77

Warning: Function split() is deprecated in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/footer.inc.php on line 62

Welding Projects

Special Offers: See the latest Miller deals and promotions.

Warning: Function split() is deprecated in /mnt/stor3-wc1-dfw1/357822/357839/www.millerwelds.com/web/content/lib/footer.inc.php on line 137