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  • angus99
    started a topic Wiring Angst

    Wiring Angst

    Hi, first post here & I would really appreciate some input from any electrical experts.

    We gave our son an MM180 for Christmas and later learned that the 220 outlet in his studio (he's a sculptor) is not live. The building is totally rewired--except for that circuit.

    The MM180 specs are:

    Input Power
    230 V, 21.7 A, 60 Hz
    Rated Output
    135 A at 22.5 VDC, 30% Duty Cycle
    Welding Amperage Range
    30 - 180 Amps

    In reading here and on other forums, I think I have two options.
    1. extend a 220 circuit that is almost never used another 100 feet to his studio. This is a 4-wire, 120/240-volt circuit, so if I understand correctly, I would have to cap the neutral on either end and make sure the ground is connected correctly. this circuit is fed by a double 30-amp breaker, 10-gauge wire, and is currently about 60 feet long. I would be adding 90 to 100 feet of 10 gauge to it. Does all this sound right? Can I use the two hots coming from the double 30-amp breaker?
    2. run a totally new, dedicated circuit of 10-2 plus ground, in conduit, about 150 feet from panel to receptacle. If I do this, there are only two empty slots in the breaker panel and they are opposite to one another. would I take the hot wires off of two single, 30-amp breakers in this case?


    I've done a fair amount of 110-v wiring in my time; not that much 220. I just want this to be safe and done right.

    Thanks!

    angus

  • angus99
    replied
    Originally posted by AnotherDano View Post
    Not that I know of. It's just harder to do.
    Next time, run individual wires and you'll see.
    SO true!!! My son's a rock climber and has arms like Arnold used to and he still had trouble feeding it through some of the bends. Live & learn, I guess.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdZep
    replied
    Romex in conduit

    I'm still following this thread, as an interested amateur.

    I thought there are two potential problems with running NM in conduit. One being excessive heat buildup. Secondly, running this configuration underground, in which case the cable would still have to be underground rated, due to moisture issues, and breakdown of jacket and paper liner.

    Leave a comment:


  • AnotherDano
    replied
    Originally posted by angus99 View Post
    thanks! It was a great experience for both of us.

    Nothing illegal, I hope, with running romex in conduit?
    Not that I know of. It's just harder to do.
    Next time, run individual wires and you'll see.

    Leave a comment:


  • angus99
    replied
    Originally posted by tnjind View Post
    I think what Walker meant was, 10-2 is a "Romex" type wire. Meaning it is all combined in a singulaur type piece that is normal ran thrugh walls.
    It is cheaper to run individual 10 gauge wires, especially through conduit.


    I am glad everything worked out. Yuo got some good time with you son also.
    thanks! It was a great experience for both of us.

    Nothing illegal, I hope, with running romex in conduit?

    Leave a comment:


  • tnjind
    replied
    I think what Walker meant was, 10-2 is a "Romex" type wire. Meaning it is all combined in a singulaur type piece that is normal ran thrugh walls.
    It is cheaper to run individual 10 gauge wires, especially through conduit.


    I am glad everything worked out. Yuo got some good time with you son also.

    Leave a comment:


  • angus99
    replied
    Originally posted by walker View Post
    BTW, you can't run 10-2wire (it is covered in insulation) in a conduit. You would need to THHN (idividual wires).
    Didn't know that. Ran 150 feet of it in conduit last night.

    angus

    Leave a comment:


  • walker
    replied
    BTW, you can't run 10-2wire (it is covered in insulation) in a conduit. You would need to THHN (idividual wires).

    Leave a comment:


  • tasslehawf
    replied
    Originally posted by MMW View Post
    If this is a rental unit then I would be very careful about checking into the laws/codes in doing this. I know in some areas it is illegal to do electrical work on a rental property without being licensed even if you have permission from the owner or if you own the property yourself. If you do the work then you are liable for any problems down the road. Having said that, I also know things like this are done all the time & if done correctly will never have a problem.
    I did all the conduit work in my studio and had lic. electricians pull the actual wire. The price was very reasonable and it took away a lot of the time-consuming work for them.

    Is the 4-wire outlet far away from his work area? I'm guessng you were saying it's about 100'. Otherwise you could just create an adapter cable to go from the 3-wire to 4-wire.

    Leave a comment:


  • MMW
    replied
    If this is a rental unit then I would be very careful about checking into the laws/codes in doing this. I know in some areas it is illegal to do electrical work on a rental property without being licensed even if you have permission from the owner or if you own the property yourself. If you do the work then you are liable for any problems down the road. Having said that, I also know things like this are done all the time & if done correctly will never have a problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • angus99
    replied
    The calculators I've seen let you go up to 140 feet with 10-2, and our longest run turned out to be around 130 feet. Also, he'll almost never use the welder at full capacity.

    In any event, my son & I worked about 10 hours yesterday and ran a total of about 140 feet of emt and 10-2 wire to power two new 240-v receptacles for his welder. It was tough going--working on a scissors lift on 18-foot ceilings--but a great project for us to work together on. Tested across all the hot legs/grounds at the two receptacles we installed and the 1 previously existing receptacle and all are right a 124 volts per leg. (I did not test across both hot wires since I wasn't sure I could do that and didn't have internet service so I could check here for advice on. Learned this morning that doing so should yield 220 to 240 volts.) So we finished up about 10 p.m., powered up the welder for a minute and then shut off the breaker until the electrician can double check our work.

    Thank very much to everyone for the expert advice. I really appreciate the help.

    Happy New Year.

    angus

    Leave a comment:


  • sam_porter
    replied
    If my memory serves me, a run of 160 feet that would handle 20+ amps would require 6AWG wire. And it would be improper to add the larger size wire onto a circuit that is already lesser in size.
    I don't know if your son will be using the welder to full capacity, but for code/saftey reasons, you may want to install proper sized wire from the braker out.
    I'll try and find my charts, and copy some more info for you in a little bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • storts
    replied
    No Worrys

    Thats what these forums are here for,one helping others,,As dano said,you would be a hero in your land lords eyes,as the price of copper,and your helping him out also,and it would be the quickest,Hanging the conduit takes time,and a pain,again as Dano said,no sub panels,seem kind of srtange???But were not there!

    I would do your option 1 cheapest,easyiest,,,My 2 cents!

    I would ask the land lord,if when he bought the building,did they Unwire a 220 wall recpt???????????Just a thought!!
    Last edited by storts; 12-30-2007, 09:39 AM. Reason: spelling

    Leave a comment:


  • AnotherDano
    replied
    I don't see a problem with that. If you like your landlord, you could run all four wires through the conduit and just use three, leaving him the option of having the neurtal for some later purpose. The difference would be the cost of another wire and the additional labor to pull it. It's much cheaper on the labor to do it now. The neutral wire would just be capped off at the studio outlet, but wired through the 'buffer' outlet.

    Otherwise, pull a black, red and ground through the conduit and make your connections, ignoring the neutral at the 'buffer' outlet.

    Curious... In that 'buffer' outlet, what color wires are present?

    Leave a comment:


  • angus99
    replied
    storts, it's definitely empty conduit running only part way out of the studio. But I can definitely use that conduit for the new circuit.

    I had another thought, if anyone's not already burned out on this. Sorry to have so many questions, but I don't want to overlook the best solution.

    If I wanted to keep that existing, seldom-used 120/240 circuit live and untouched (it's for a floor polisher), could I do this?
    1. Leave the 4-wire circuit running from the breaker panel to its receptacle as-is.
    2. Just tap the two hots and ground on the 4-wire at the junction box and run 2 hots and a ground from the junction box on to the studio


    In this scenario, the neutral on the 4-wire would be untouched--still connected at the panel and receptacle--but would not be part of the 3-wire circuit.

    The owner of the building would prefer to have continued access to that original 4-wire circuit, if possible, but might actually use it once or twice a year and NEVER while my son is using his welder.

    This would be by far the easiest and cheapest if it's safe and up to code.

    Thank very much.

    angus

    Leave a comment:

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