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Power everywhere but no 220 230 or 240

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  • #91
    up n down & up n down.

    Originally posted by Grumpy2 View Post
    So if I use a oscilloscope I'll see two waveforms?
    yup yup yup
    two wave forms 180 dergrees apart. should sortof look like a DNA helix... unless you are in Europe and some other countries of the world where they use 220-240 volt on a single conductor with a neutral.
    we (in the americas)are 120 volts on one conductor with a neutral.
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    Last edited by SignWave; 12-18-2007, 07:09 PM.
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

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    • #92
      Here is what two phase power is
      "Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th century polyphase alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits, or "phases", were used, with voltages 90 electrical degrees apart in time. Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently, three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter conductor. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the largest generators in the world at the time and were two-phase machines. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and field assemblies, mechanically shifted by 90 mechanical degrees to provide two-phase power."
      "Note that true two phase power, meaning the simultaneous provision of sine wave and cosine wave electricity (that is, 90 degrees out of phase) is no longer widely used. But some people incorrectly describe split single phase services as "two phase", when in fact such services are really still single phase power.

      True two-phase power uses two completely independent pairs of wires. It lost out to three phase power due to the fact that two phase requires four wires total to function, while three-phase only needs three wires. Copper was expensive to manufacture when electrification first started, and the expense of the extra wire needed for two phase to work was a major cost concern."

      Now, if I am not mistaken true two phase power would show on a scope as having a sine wave and cosine wave, not the diagram that is shown.

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      • #93
        This post gave me a headache !!!!!!!!!!!!!
        Scott
        HMW [Heavy Metal welding]

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        • #94
          Originally posted by walker View Post
          Here is what two phase power is
          "Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th century polyphase alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits, or "phases", were used, with voltages 90 electrical degrees apart in time. Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently, three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter conductor. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the largest generators in the world at the time and were two-phase machines. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and field assemblies, mechanically shifted by 90 mechanical degrees to provide two-phase power."
          "Note that true two phase power, meaning the simultaneous provision of sine wave and cosine wave electricity (that is, 90 degrees out of phase) is no longer widely used. But some people incorrectly describe split single phase services as "two phase", when in fact such services are really still single phase power.

          True two-phase power uses two completely independent pairs of wires. It lost out to three phase power due to the fact that two phase requires four wires total to function, while three-phase only needs three wires. Copper was expensive to manufacture when electrification first started, and the expense of the extra wire needed for two phase to work was a major cost concern."

          Now, if I am not mistaken true two phase power would show on a scope as having a sine wave and cosine wave, not the diagram that is shown.
          Thanks, walker, I didn't know that. This is a great site. I learn something new everyday. Now, if I can only remember the new stuff.
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          • #95
            "Two" phase

            Yes. The wave forms show the relationship between the opposing legs 180 degrees apart. If there were not two waveforms 180 degrees apart, then you could not obtain 240 volts from two opposing legs of 120 volts.

            Roger
            Last edited by griff01; 12-19-2007, 07:21 PM. Reason: incorrect spacing

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            • #96
              Originally posted by walker View Post
              Now, if I am not mistaken true two phase power would show on a scope as having a sine wave and cosine wave, not the diagram that is shown.
              this two phase configuration reminds me of a wheel thats got a big chunk taken out of it..

              kATHUNK KATHUNK KATHUNK......
              Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

              Miller 251/30A spool
              Syncro200
              Spectrum 625
              O/A
              Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
              Standard modern lathe
              Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
              horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
              Roland XC540 PRO III
              54" laminator
              hammer and screwdriver (most used)
              little dog
              pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

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              • #97
                While one leg of the single phase waveform is pushing, the other side is inversely neutral. When you take half the single sine wave, and "ground" it (via the neutral) to complete the circuit (a must for electron flow), you will get 0V to +120V and back to 0V in 60 bursts per second on one leg and nothing on the neutral.

                When you want 240V, you take both sides, rather than half of that sine wave, and you bounce between +120V and -120V on either leg, thus you end up with 240V across the load and you eliminate the neutral from the circuit.

                Maybe this is a bit too esoteric? It's the reason single phase is referred to as "split phase." There aren't two phases, there is one phase constantly cycling from positive to negative and back. When you implement the neutral carrier, you cut out the other leg from the circuit.

                What the original posters device does, is cut out the neutral from a pair of opposite legs outlets, and does provide access to true 240V assuming there ARE two legs on the homes service.

                The paranoia from others in this thread about not using a ganged breaker is not entirely well founded either. What you lack with this configuration is a completely dead circuit in the event of a partial overload across the device. One leg could remain hot while the other has tripped. This only presents a danger if you then made contact from the remaining live leg to neutral or ground (completing a 120V circuit). However, this isn't very likely with correct machine frame grounding and wiring practices. You would lose full power through any type of load connected in this manner.

                The real danger is some jackass connecting a 120V load via one of these devices to 240V service. In that case you would probably fry the device in short order.

                This is my take on it, and that is founded in many years of practical and technical electrical experience.

                As an aside: Look into "horizontal blanking" in the NTSC television format (or any horizontal blanking in PAL or what not). They use the sine waves passing from positive to neutral to sync the tv picture in cathode ray tubes. That's part of why we have interlaced pictures.
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                • #98
                  I need drugs!!!!!!!!!

                  They gave me tranquizers for my mini back operation Tommorow,
                  Is there a Miller record????? 10 pages on 120 ,or as everyone calls it,110! This has to go down in the record book!

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                  • #99
                    Tempraiser, I am a former electrician, and I am currently working on my PhD. in Quantum Mechanics; so I have extensive knowledge of electricity and magnetisim, both in application and theory. Amazingly, I have been in a situation similar to yours, and can answer most of your questions.

                    However because you are such a pr1ck, I will not. I wouldn't give you the sweat off my arse if you were dying of thirst.

                    FU

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                    • TROLL
                      That is kind of rough.
                      Tim Beeker,
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                      • Originally posted by Troll View Post
                        Tempraiser, I am a former electrician, and I am currently working on my PhD. in Quantum Mechanics; so I have extensive knowledge of electricity and magnetisim, both in application and theory. Amazingly, I have been in a situation similar to yours, and can answer most of your questions.

                        However because you are such a pr1ck, I will not. I wouldn't give you the sweat off my arse if you were dying of thirst.

                        FU

                        Even though I agree with you that's being a little rough on the guy.
                        The definition of courage. "It's when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and you see it through to the end no matter what." From "To Kill a Mockingbird"

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                        • Gentlemen, I realize it's rough; however, in my opinion he has been nothing short of rude and disrespectfull. If there was a misunderstanding, and had he tried to set things right after his second post, I would have helped. Instead he continued to be a jerk.

                          This board is full of great and helpfull guys that don't deserve the attitude tempraiser is giving. I myself have been helped and I say 'thankyou' to all that make this board the great place it is.

                          I am not a great welder, so I don't post much, but I do continue to watch and listen, and I enjoy it very much.

                          Kepp it up fellows, but I do stand by my post's. If it offends any of the regulars, I will say sorry to you, but not him.

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                          • why not use generator to supply the power you need, save everyone the headache , some people want to make their problems everyone elses.

                            cheers
                            Jim

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                            • If you are running a generator you might as well be running an engine drive welder. The only reason to run one is there is no other way, easily over 10 times the operating cost of line power, just in fuel, the cost of a genset alone would put a good dent in the price of a service upgrade.

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                              • Will the madness ever end ???????
                                Scott
                                HMW [Heavy Metal welding]

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