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  • Figure this out...

    Another head scratcher...

    We all know that oil and water will not mix. If you can get it to mix it wont stay mixed for long. Right? Right.

    So what happens when you mix Argon and Helium inside the bottle?
    Would logic not dictate that Argon sink to the bottom and Helium float to the top of the bottle even though they are under pressure. For the same matter what about CO2 and Argon or any other gas mix out there.
    Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

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  • #2
    I believe you stumped everybody with this question. I guess I will have to get out my old chemistry book to try and figure this one out.
    sigpic 6010
    If I had know I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself.

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    • #3
      No, they will not separate while under pressure.

      Comment


      • #4
        Engloid:

        I disagree with you on this, but not because I am any kind of an expert. Let me explain.

        A couple of years ago when I first got my MM251 I got a 300CF tank of 75/25 with it. I had the same question as SignWave, and questioned my Airgas rep as to how with the tank sitting still on my welder for a long time the gases would not separate. I reasoned that CO2 is heavier than Argon, and that would happen. Airgas rep said that yes, it would, but their 75/25 tanks contained a "mixing tube" which caused the gas to be drawn out correctly mixed. I never did fully understand this, and could find no one with Airgas that could show, or explain the mixing tube to me.

        Fast forward. I welded the entire tank of gas and the arc characteristics did not change from start to finish. Emptied tank. Went over to Airgas to exchange and they have no 300 CF tanks of 75/25, but they gave me an 80 CF tank of 75/25 to use until the big tanks came in. Hooked it up and the arc was completely different. Different color arc, much hotter and more penetration. I figured I had forgotten how to weld. Two days of this I call my Airgas guy and explain to him what I am seeing. Go outside, he says, and see if there is a round green sticker on the tank that says "dip tube." I did and there was. He says that they have mistakenly filled tanks with 75/25 with a dip tube, I am pulling off the bottom of the cylinder, and am getting pure CO2. Take it back to AirGas, get a 300 CF with mixing tube, and it is back to welding as normal.

        So, first I disagree that pressure will prevent different weight gasses from separating. Second, my experience as stated above would seem to indicate that they do. Now I am not trying to be rude or pick a fight here, but to say that there is a lot that I do not know. And hopefully someone will come along that can clarify if there is actually a mixing tube that draws gas out of a mixed gas cylinder or not, and whether two different weight gasses in a cylinder under pressure will separate according to weight. As usual, I may be very wrong.

        Adios----

        Comment


        • #5
          http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5232017.html

          maybe this will help a little...

          SSS
          Bobcat 250, MM 210, Syncrowave 180, Spectrum 375
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          • #6
            I figured that there had to be some sort of way to mix the gases together.

            Im sure Boyles laws come into play somewhere too.
            Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

            Miller 251/30A spool
            Syncro200
            Spectrum 625
            O/A
            Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
            Standard modern lathe
            Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
            horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
            Roland XC540 PRO III
            54" laminator
            hammer and screwdriver (most used)
            little dog
            pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

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            • #7
              So with all that being said I suppose then the only way to insure results is have separate cylinders and adjust your mix to suit your particular requirements as you go.
              That way as the the part in question got hotter you could back off the helium a bit and save a buck or two as in the case of a welder lacking enuff amps.
              I sorta feel like the guys working in welding supply places sorta lack the passion for their jobs that us the welders who use their products seem to display. The recent giant disasters at gas plants sorta shows this. I don't remember to many recent articles about professional welders blowing up entire facilities. What I'm driving at is I seriosly doubt the % of mix being exact in the first place let alone with the idiots and attitude I encounter daily. It is much like the auto supply industry only about a decade behind in technology mixed in with an ''old money attitude'' stating at the top.

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              • #8
                It also seems to me sometimes a new, full bottle works better than an almost empty one. And it does seem some new bottles don't work very well, so I agree I think it depends some on the competence of the one filling it
                Scott
                HMW [Heavy Metal welding]

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by HMW View Post
                  It also seems to me sometimes a new, full bottle works better than an almost empty one. And it does seem some new bottles don't work very well, so I agree I think it depends some on the competence of the one filling it
                  I concur.

                  Thats why I like to take my bottles 4x4'n that shakes 'em up real good!! Then once back at the farm, I weld stuff!

                  The last fill I got, was a short fill I only got 1700 pounds.. Those Bstrds!!!!
                  the nextitme I went in to get another bottle, I told the guy who had filled it previously that he had shorted me, and he just sorta stood there with a dumb look on his face. His body language said: " so? what do you want me to do about it?"
                  Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

                  Miller 251/30A spool
                  Syncro200
                  Spectrum 625
                  O/A
                  Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
                  Standard modern lathe
                  Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
                  horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
                  Roland XC540 PRO III
                  54" laminator
                  hammer and screwdriver (most used)
                  little dog
                  pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SignWave View Post
                    I concur.

                    Thats why I like to take my bottles 4x4'n that shakes 'em up real good!! Then once back at the farm, I weld stuff!

                    The last fill I got, was a short fill I only got 1700 pounds.. Those Bstrds!!!!
                    the nextitme I went in to get another bottle, I told the guy who had filled it previously that he had shorted me, and he just sorta stood there with a dumb look on his face. His body language said: " so? what do you want me to do about it?"
                    I've had the pressure in my tanks vary by + or - 200lbs from day to day, just due to the temperature.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SignWave View Post
                      So what happens when you mix Argon and Helium inside the bottle?
                      Would logic not dictate that Argon sink to the bottom and Helium float to the top of the bottle even though they are under pressure.
                      Darn imteresting. And well answered too..

                      But it brings to mind:
                      Do they use different (SCUBA tank) cylinders and mixing tubes for 'Mixed gas', deep sea/saturation divers who have Helium mixed in with thier compressed air?

                      .
                      "Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
                      I doubt we'll see either of their likes again".

                      Circa 1920.
                      Author:
                      Unknown US Coast Guard unit Commander.

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                      • #12
                        200 lbs huh? thats alot. My environment is fairly stable and the weather here has been cool lately. No pressure fluctuations at all. just short fills. They usually fill argon tanks to 2000psi (or so they said) Its time for another fill now too so I'll have to give'em the gears again. Maybe he'll drop 10 bucks off the price.

                        What are you payinfor a fill and how big of a tank. I have 125 cu/ft tanks and im paying $55.oo cnd. (argon)
                        Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

                        Miller 251/30A spool
                        Syncro200
                        Spectrum 625
                        O/A
                        Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
                        Standard modern lathe
                        Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
                        horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
                        Roland XC540 PRO III
                        54" laminator
                        hammer and screwdriver (most used)
                        little dog
                        pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Winger Ed. View Post
                          Darn imteresting. And well answered too..

                          But it brings to mind:
                          Do they use different (SCUBA tank) cylinders and mixing tubes for 'Mixed gas', deep sea/saturation divers who have Helium mixed in with thier compressed air?

                          .
                          They use nitrogen generaly when mixing gases and no the tanks are not different, just standard SCUBA tanks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SignWave View Post
                            They usually fill argon tanks to 2000psi (or so they said) Its time for another fill now too so I'll have to give'em the gears again. Maybe he'll drop 10 bucks off the price.

                            What are you payinfor a fill and how big of a tank. I have 125 cu/ft tanks and im paying $55.oo cnd. (argon)

                            Don't worry then Signwave, the last bottle I got had 2200psi in it, so me and another guy got the long end of your bottle.

                            I believe I paid $59U.S. for my last 300cf(330??) bottle of Argon. I think it was $29 for a 125 of 75/25. Can't say for sure, I can't usually get out of there for less than $200.

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                            • #15
                              Awww man!! Well, I hope you enjoyed makin all those extra welds for me!
                              Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

                              Miller 251/30A spool
                              Syncro200
                              Spectrum 625
                              O/A
                              Precix 5x10 CNC Router12"Z
                              Standard modern lathe
                              Cheap Chinese mill that does the trick... sort of...
                              horizontal 7x12 bandsaw
                              Roland XC540 PRO III
                              54" laminator
                              hammer and screwdriver (most used)
                              little dog
                              pooper scooper (2nd most used...)

                              Comment

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