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MIG or stick on this one?

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  • #16
    45 feet in the air?

    Access- How will you get to the weld. Ladder, man lift, man basket, leaning over the edge of the roof???

    Weather- Wind, a little wind on the ground can be a lot of wind on the top of the tank.

    Prep.- Paint, rust, maybe some mold on the north side.

    My suggestion would be to stick weld it with either 1/8'' 7018 or 5/32'' 7010-A1 (SA-85 I believe) the tank shell itself is only 5/16'' thick, so you don't need a 1'' fillet weld. With Mig or dual shield you'll have to tote the 8vs & gun + wire + 45' of lead + gas hose + grinders + power cord to make the weld. Up and down 8 times, Preping each area, possably building a wind break. I'd stick it for sure.

    The Mag. partical test is a good idea if your worried about covering your rear.
    The tank being ''cleaned'' is one thing, The floor inside the cement walls has probably seen just as much fuel as the tanks. An air monitor and fire watch would be a good idea.

    I would use the 7010-A1 and I would down-hill it or Nr-232 .068. I would NOT use this site for advice on what process to use. You know this job better than any of use but you don't know what process to us This would be were I turned to. You'd have better luck flippin' a coin.

    Good luck and be careful.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Rig Hand View Post
      45 feet in the air?

      Access- How will you get to the weld. Ladder, man lift, man basket, leaning over the edge of the roof???

      Weather- Wind, a little wind on the ground can be a lot of wind on the top of the tank.

      Prep.- Paint, rust, maybe some mold on the north side.

      My suggestion would be to stick weld it with either 1/8'' 7018 or 5/32'' 7010-A1 (SA-85 I believe) the tank shell itself is only 5/16'' thick, so you don't need a 1'' fillet weld. With Mig or dual shield you'll have to tote the 8vs & gun + wire + 45' of lead + gas hose + grinders + power cord to make the weld. Up and down 8 times, Preping each area, possably building a wind break. I'd stick it for sure.

      The Mag. partical test is a good idea if your worried about covering your rear.
      The tank being ''cleaned'' is one thing, The floor inside the cement walls has probably seen just as much fuel as the tanks. An air monitor and fire watch would be a good idea.

      I would use the 7010-A1 and I would down-hill it or Nr-232 .068. I would NOT use this site for advice on what process to use. You know this job better than any of use but you don't know what process to us This would be were I turned to. You'd have better luck flippin' a coin.

      Good luck and be careful.
      It amazes me that you guys will tell someone that has admitted he doesn't have his stick welding down just yet to down hill something. Sorry but to me thats recklessly foolish. I understand that folks like yourself that are practiced up on this technique would have no problem but please be careful what you suggest to welders that don't have your first hand knowledge.
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      • #18
        This thread is all over the place for sure.

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        • #19
          not telling you how to do it,i've built hundreds of vertical tanks in varying sizes. most of the lifting lugs were approx 12" h X6"w with 2"holes and 5/8 material. 2 lift lugs per tank . we just made sure that 7" of length were welded onto the tank. i have always used stick to weld them on, in different combos of 10 and 18 rod.many of these tanks were in that 30,000lb area when fully dressed. just an example of what i have/seen done. one suggestion, get the areas of the tank you have to work on tested with ultrasound to MAKE SURE that it is still 5/16 and not something less because of corrosion. good luck and hope its trouble free work.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by Rig Hand View Post
            I would NOT use this site for advice on what process to use. <snip> You'd have better luck flippin' a coin.
            That pretty much sums it up for me... Hard to tell sometimes who is a certified professional, and who is an over enthusiastic wanna-be giving you poor or dangerous "advice".

            For myself, given the 2" lip at the roofline that you have to clear, your original idea seems do-able. Material on your repads is reasonable give the amount of lifting points, and the amount of stress you have to spread out because of the use of the teardrops plated welded perpendicular.

            I have personally never done it this way... The tank manufacturing plant I worked at made the roofs flush with the walls, and used two lifting lugs welded on the sides of the tank very much the same as Blackbeard described... Right down to the -10 and -18 series electrodes as determined by the engineer.

            Did it with 500 bbl, 750 bbl, and 1000 bbl storage tanks, and never had a failure in the yard, or on the customer's site.

            Back to the original point though... This really is not the place for advice on something like this - 'cause you never know who is giving it.
            Last edited by Black Wolf; 09-05-2009, 09:12 AM.
            Later,
            Jason

            Professional Spark Generator by Trade.

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            • #21
              I think this is the perfect place for this advice, it gets sorted by several where in the world he may get one opinion. I think Blackbeard hit it as close as it gets, would be almost identical to what I would have done had I shown up on the job and faced this.

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              • #22
                Can you imagine the cluster **** of rigging for 8 eyes? It would have got 2, each 4 times as strong as needed to lift the whole tank.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Showdog75 View Post
                  It amazes me that you guys will tell someone that has admitted he doesn't have his stick welding down just yet to down hill something. Sorry but to me thats recklessly foolish. I understand that folks like yourself that are practiced up on this technique would have no problem but please be careful what you suggest to welders that don't have your first hand knowledge.
                  Original poster said he is still perfecting his uphill stick, so he could be good at down hill. You can also run 7010 uphill or down. I just stated what I would do.

                  Is it foolish of me to say how I would do it. Or is it foolish of the original poster to ask a bounch of strangers on the internet how to do on of his jobs.

                  Showdog, I think we can agree that HawkerMW should use the process he is the most confidence in. That way if something goes wrong he knows he did his best.

                  Everyone is worried about the weld or metal. If you're a welder and this is your biggest problem why have a buisness. I would be more concerned with the fall and fire hazards. Or how I will fit the pads up. The welding should be a Given.

                  Hawker how would you have welded this if the phone rang and you drove out to the job and they wanted it done as soon as you got their, site unseen?
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sberry View Post
                    Can you imagine the cluster **** of rigging for 8 eyes? It would have got 2, each 4 times as strong as needed to lift the whole tank.
                    He said they were going to attach shackles with 1" diameter pins.

                    That would be a 7/8" standard forged anchor shackle, and those are commonly rated at 6.5 tons. So he could beef up the eye tabs to 10 times what they need to be, but it won't make anything any stronger because the system is only as strong as it's weakest link, and they'll probably still use the anchors they've got.

                    And if it's rigged at 45 degrees, the load on each shackle (as well as the eye tabs) increases to a little over 12 tons, static (if using only 2 eyes). Switching shackles becomes impractical once these things are welded on with 1" holes drilled in them.

                    The devil is in the details. The right answer is to have a PE design the eye tabs and give a welding procedure. But I'd be willing to bet that would price him out of this job, since so many others would be willing to jump in and put something together without doing any math whatsoever. So since he's going to do this without a PE, he's going to have to sort the good ideas from the garbage ones and remember that whatever he decides, it's his responsibility.
                    Last edited by Bodybagger; 09-05-2009, 12:37 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Good catch about the size of the shackles.

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                      • #26
                        I would go with 4-padeyes, two chokers, eye of each choker shackled to each padeye, and 2-rolling blocks, short choker in the bail of each rolling block, the other eyes in the hook of the crane with those eyes married together with another shackle just to be safe.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by reggie
                          any experienced welder would show up on site and know what to do and do it.Being here and asking basic questions on the job you have before you proves you are not one. Who in charge is letting you attempt this...being here looking to be spoonfed says a lot of your capabilities...do you know any welders in real life??I think you are in over your head...not that it's a complicated job,just the fact you are asking how to do it.
                          I asked "STICK or MIG..." primarily to find out the best process for the situation. I've done structural, pipe but primarily my work is ornamental, staircases, etc. I don't claim to be a cocky SOB that knows everything.

                          I'm not asking how to do the job. and I'm not rigging it. I'm just doing what i'm asked as far as the eyes. In fact, a welder I had talked to about it, that had done similar work (after giving him the facts on the tank) sized the eyes smaller than what i'm fabricating.

                          AND... just for your guys reference, the diameter of the pin on a nominal 1" shackle is 1.13", with a WLL of 8.5 tons.
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                          • #28
                            Dear Sir, I do not wish to add fuel to the fire . My concern is one that has not been mentioned.I have been a certified pipe welder since '91 and have welded pipe in every type of industry with certifications for many alloys and processes but never under any circumstances would this allow me to weld on a coded vessel.There are strict procedures that govern tanks and vessels for this reason.For the safety of you and the people involved, it is best to fully understand the ramifications of a failure on your part.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by fabricator View Post
                              Dear Sir, I do not wish to add fuel to the fire . My concern is one that has not been mentioned.I have been a certified pipe welder since '91 and have welded pipe in every type of industry with certifications for many alloys and processes but never under any circumstances would this allow me to weld on a coded vessel.There are strict procedures that govern tanks and vessels for this reason.For the safety of you and the people involved, it is best to fully understand the ramifications of a failure on your part.
                              not entirely sure what you mean, but for what it's worth, the reason for welding the eyes is so they can remove the tank and destroy it with a shear in a more open area. the tank isn't even on a footing.
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by HawkerMetalworks View Post
                                not on a holiday weekend, and when the crane is going to be there tuesday morning...
                                I hope all goes well for you tomorrow. It sounds like you have things sorted out. Post some pictures after it is done and be careful.
                                Nick

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