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  • Vertical welds with my mig ?

    Hey all, another noob here.
    I just purchased a M/M 252, i'm starting mig class at the local CC in early april. I was dying to get this thing fired up and run some beads.
    A friend gave me a real cheap (free) welding table, it;s 30"x72" with a 3/8" top, it seems to be pretty straight/ flat but it's been sittins out in hes feild for a couple years.
    It's proving to be quite the project, a kick in the but but pretty labor intense.
    I'm adding quite a few add ons that i've seen on this forum, where i'm having issues is my vertical welds ?
    do I need to drop my volts down a hair, I'm getting my droopie puddles and it seems to be burning through on a couple of spots, when it does this I make a wider pool and it seems to cool enough to fill it. Any advise ?
    I'm welding 2'x2' 1/8 tube, my settings are 17.5 volts and 247 feed speed, 030 wire. My index on the machine says start at 18v/250 feed but 18 was definatly too hot.
    Thanks and I do love this 252, it seems to be very adjustable.

  • #2
    I use that machine almost everyday at work, that or the 251. When I do vertical welds my machine is set at 18.6 volts and wfs at 165-170. I keep it at these setting for any vertical weld i place. You may want to try a trigger up weld. pull the trigger let the weld fill up, release trigger, watch the color of the metal, as soon as it starts to fade(through the dark lense assuming your not using a autoshade) move up right into the root where your last puddle ended and pull the trigger let the puddle fill again, then release trigger. Repeat until weld is finished. Does that make sense?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jeep80CJ7 View Post
      I use that machine almost everyday at work, that or the 251. When I do vertical welds my machine is set at 18.6 volts and wfs at 165-170. I keep it at these setting for any vertical weld i place. You may want to try a trigger up weld. pull the trigger let the weld fill up, release trigger, watch the color of the metal, as soon as it starts to fade(through the dark lense assuming your not using a autoshade) move up right into the root where your last puddle ended and pull the trigger let the puddle fill again, then release trigger. Repeat until weld is finished. Does that make sense?
      Jeep;
      What are you telling this person to do ??
      sigpic
      Sunrise Outside My Shop In Delhi, Ontario

      - Arcair- K 4000 CAC.

      - LN-25 Wire Feeder

      - Lincoln Ranger 8- Engine Drive- CC\CV:



      - Lincoln Power Mig 180C
      - Spoolgun.
      - DeWalt Chop Saw .
      - DeWalt Compressor - 13cfm, @ 100 psi.

      www.normsmobilewelding.blogspot.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Well i figured he is only modifying a welding table. No ones life should be on the line with this project if a weld fails. I was thinking about this all day at work too. I know that's not proper welding so I should not have told him that. I actually do this alot at work when working with the 1.5"X1.5"X1/6" square tube. I would never do that on something that could kill or injure someone if the weld was to fail. So none of the stuff i do at work like that is critical in that sense.
        To be honest, i'm not sure why it's improper welding. I would love to know. Maybe I will never do it again if i understood.
        Last edited by Jeep80CJ7; 03-14-2009, 01:05 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Jeep,

          What you get is a series of "cold starts" and a poor weld. I can't believe that that's acceptable in any production environment. Bad advice.

          Straightshot,

          You will normally run a little less v/a(ws) when welding vertical up than you would in the flat position.

          I use a MM251 but your 252 should be similar. Try setting the Volts at 16.5-17.00 and your WS to 235-280. Use a small whip from side to side, only pausing briefly at the edges and not in the center of the joint. Come up slightly with each side to side whip. The weld bead should be continuous.

          You may wish to download Miller's GMAW instruction manual on technique for welding vertical up. It's available under resources at the top of the page, or better yet, go ahead and order their "Student Pack". It will be the best $25 you spend in welding.

          I'd recommend practice on some scrap stock before you go to the table itself.
          Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
          Dynasty 200 DX
          Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
          Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
          Hobart HH187
          Dialarc 250 AC/DC
          Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
          Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
          PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
          Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
          Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
          More grinders than hands

          Comment


          • #6
            I appreciate the info guys, I will check Millers site and check the student pack.
            I did kick the volts down to 16.7 and inched the wfs up to 260, it worked quite a bit better.
            I need to practice my steady hand, I been doing a C motion and I noticed I needed to speed across the gap and stall on the edges.
            I've been watching this forum for months and can honestly say you guys are pretty cool..
            I'll try and get some "before & after' pic's up, if I can figure out how to do it ?
            Thanks again Jon

            Comment


            • #7
              Vertical-Up

              Originally posted by Straightshot View Post
              I appreciate the info guys, I will check Millers site and check the student pack.
              I did kick the volts down to 16.7 and inched the wfs up to 260, it worked quite a bit better.
              I need to practice my steady hand, I been doing a C motion and I noticed I needed to speed across the gap and stall on the edges.
              I've been watching this forum for months and can honestly say you guys are pretty cool..
              I'll try and get some "before & after' pic's up, if I can figure out how to do it ?
              Thanks again Jon
              Jon, Hi;
              Sounds like your getting the idea of welding Vertical-up !
              Yes pause on the sides , But Do not Jump across, Weld Across to the
              Sides!! You Will get It !

              .............. Norm
              sigpic
              Sunrise Outside My Shop In Delhi, Ontario

              - Arcair- K 4000 CAC.

              - LN-25 Wire Feeder

              - Lincoln Ranger 8- Engine Drive- CC\CV:



              - Lincoln Power Mig 180C
              - Spoolgun.
              - DeWalt Chop Saw .
              - DeWalt Compressor - 13cfm, @ 100 psi.

              www.normsmobilewelding.blogspot.com

              Comment


              • #8
                straightshot,

                Just a little tip for the MM251/252.

                When welding vertical up, check the door chart for the next size down material. That will generally get you real close.

                Too many variables for me to send you the exact numbers I would use on my machine in my shop. They include the input power to the machine, length of gun lead, wire manufacturer, etc, etc. That's why I normally will give a range and let you tweak from there.

                Glad it's working out for you. The MM252 is a great mig welder. Are you using the M25 gun or have you gone to the Bernard Q-300's. If you're using the M25 you can still convert your gun to use the Bernard Centerfire tips. They are great. Much more durable tip than the standard ones.
                Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                Dynasty 200 DX
                Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                Hobart HH187
                Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                More grinders than hands

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sundown/Straightshot (in that order)

                  I have the same "new" 252 and I had the same problem initially and I found that it did run a little hotter then the "door chart" when running uphill with .030 wire. I foud that I couldn't run straight up very well using the same technique I used to use years ago with a transformer power supply/wire feed.
                  I found it worked great with a rapid weave as described (very important to hold a short arc and stickout.

                  (Sundowner), I have ordered the Bernard Centerfire frontend components for the M-25. I don't know what the difference is but I found I had much better control of the heat with this machine using .035 wire in all positions (so far) Mind you I only have limited time on the new machine and I am Loving it more and more!

                  Straightshot, you are going to love this machine (with the lightweight tube) you may be more comfortable running those welds downhill, you can accomplish it straight down the root with a short arc and slight cant up staying just on the leading edge of the puddle!

                  Tim
                  sigpicRetired Elevator Consrtructor Local 19 IUEC
                  AK bush pilot (no longer in AK) too old and no longer bold)
                  Chaplain CMA chapter 26
                  Dynasty200dx (new and loving it)
                  MM-252 (NEW AND LEARNING IT)
                  Hypertherm PM-45
                  Miller 140 mig 110v
                  Vtwin builder

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Guys

                    Sundown, Norm, Tim, Jeep. Thank you ,
                    I do love this machine !
                    I will try the next step down method and hopefully adjust up from there.
                    I'm getting better on the vertical, but definatly need more practice.
                    My table is almost complete , just adding on some features seen on this forum.
                    I have to build a chopsaw stand next.
                    Sundown,Tim, any idea what it cost to convert to the Bernard ends ?
                    I did have my first lesson on melting the wire to the tip, twice! about an hour of weld time apart.
                    The first time it happened I scratched my head for a few min. on why my wire stopped feeding, hit the Miller Manual and figured it out real quick.
                    Thank you all again.. Jon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Straightshot,

                      You will need to spend about $35 for the Centerfire Nozzle, difuser, and contact tips (pack of ten) to convert the M-25 gun to centerfire Bernard frontend. You may do better depending on where you get the goodies.
                      I ordered mine from Cyberweld. (haven't got mine yet) http://store.cyberweld.com/becemigcoq3.html

                      Here is link to the parts needed.

                      http://www.bernardwelds.com/products...ion_chart.html

                      Enjoy,

                      Tim
                      sigpicRetired Elevator Consrtructor Local 19 IUEC
                      AK bush pilot (no longer in AK) too old and no longer bold)
                      Chaplain CMA chapter 26
                      Dynasty200dx (new and loving it)
                      MM-252 (NEW AND LEARNING IT)
                      Hypertherm PM-45
                      Miller 140 mig 110v
                      Vtwin builder

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Straightshot,

                        The only thing I would add to Tim's list is the insulator. You'll need one of those too. It's about $6.

                        Now that you're becoming proficient at welding tips, you'll be happy to learn that another good thing about the centerfire tips is that they don't screw in like the standard Miller tips. They are held in position by screwing down the nozzle. When you weld the wire to the tip (happens to all of us at times), you simply unscrew the nozzle, advance the wire slightly, snip it off and then you can generally pull it out the back of the tip. Easy.

                        I generally have my LWS order the Bernard parts, but I have ordered from Cyberweld, and they're good people to deal with.
                        Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                        Dynasty 200 DX
                        Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                        Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                        Hobart HH187
                        Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                        Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                        Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                        PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                        Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                        Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                        More grinders than hands

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sundowner,

                          Good catch, I just noticed that I forgot to add that part in the adaptor kit. I called all my LWS's and they carried the contacts but not the rest of the parts. Do you have any comment on the way the MM252 runs with .030 wire? It seems to run smoother/less spatter with .035 and seems to do fine at low voltage with the bigger wire as well. (again, I am not that experienced at mig welding other then smooth drag single pass structual) I am hoping to start building some roll cages and exocages, bumpers and other off road projects to "justify" my craving for more shop tools and to make Craig nervous!

                          Tim
                          sigpicRetired Elevator Consrtructor Local 19 IUEC
                          AK bush pilot (no longer in AK) too old and no longer bold)
                          Chaplain CMA chapter 26
                          Dynasty200dx (new and loving it)
                          MM-252 (NEW AND LEARNING IT)
                          Hypertherm PM-45
                          Miller 140 mig 110v
                          Vtwin builder

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tim,

                            To be honest, I've never run .030 wire in my MM251. For the smaller jobs that require .030 or .023 I just use the HH187.

                            I use the Bernard Q-300 gun with a 15' lead. I suspect I may have a little trouble pushing .030 wire that far thru a .035-.045 liner. I use the 33# spools of .035 and .045 in the MM251. Both feed well with my setup.

                            With the standard M25 gun with a 12' lead, I don't think you'd have a problem pushing .030 wire thru that setup. .023 may be a different story. I actually bought an M10 gun (10' lead) for using .023/.030 in the 251, but I've never used it. Just too easy to fire up the HH187.

                            Hope this sheds a little light on the subject.

                            Oh, don't remember if I mentioned it. For short circuit transfer the flush nozzle works best. For spray it helps to use the recessed nozzle.
                            Syncrowave 250 DX Tigrunner
                            Dynasty 200 DX
                            Miller XMT 304 w/714D Feeder & Optima Control
                            Miller MM 251 w/Q300 & 30A SG
                            Hobart HH187
                            Dialarc 250 AC/DC
                            Hypertherm PM 600 & 1250
                            Wilton 7"x12" bandsaw
                            PC Dry Cut Saw, Dewalt Chop Saw
                            Milwaukee 8" Metal Cut Saw, Milwaukee Portaband.
                            Thermco and Smith (2) Gas Mixers
                            More grinders than hands

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sundowner,

                              Thanks for the confirmation, I pretty much convinced myself the same thing. I have a old Autoarc 4110 (miller 140 with a .023 gun that I just rebuilt and it seems to work just fine for anything that I can't run .035 with. I am looking forward to seeing how the centerfire frontend parts work on the M-25 gun. I probably jumped the gun when I ordered the .023 rollers and contacts for the MM252 but, oh well.

                              I am looking to cut up some coupons to concentrate some practice with the 252. I will post my results as I am always learning (heck at my age) I might as well go out practicing!! Besides I am trying to catch up to Craig for number of hours welding and not getting paid to do it (LOL)

                              Tim
                              sigpicRetired Elevator Consrtructor Local 19 IUEC
                              AK bush pilot (no longer in AK) too old and no longer bold)
                              Chaplain CMA chapter 26
                              Dynasty200dx (new and loving it)
                              MM-252 (NEW AND LEARNING IT)
                              Hypertherm PM-45
                              Miller 140 mig 110v
                              Vtwin builder

                              Comment

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