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  • #16
    I heard this somewhere, take it or leave it. In the 100 years since we've been using oil to run the world, we've used approximately 1 trillion barrels of oil. There are estimated to be another 15 trillion barrels of oil available. That's more than 1000 years of available oil to run the world. With these estimated numbers, mankind has plenty of time to come up with solar, wind or any other alternative, financially viable power.

    Oil runs the WORLD economy, whether we like it or not. Fuel prices are dictated by the world economy, not by the big oil companies. With china and india now using cars like we do, prices are going up.

    We need to be building nuclear power plants as fast as we can. And if we don't start drilling in ANWR and the gulf of Mexico, America is done. But the eco-freaks won't let us.
    RETIRED desk jockey.

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    • #17
      something evil this way comes..

      I dont know what going on in the world but rest assured its not for your benifit. We are ADDICTED to oil like a junkei to heroin. Think about it. Could you go a day a week or a month without using gas or fuel? Its so bloody hard...

      As for biodiesel. This Sh*T is worse for the environment than dino diesel...But hey someones makin a killin of of it.. and your takin it in the a$$ all the way... We all are..

      And using electricty is probalby the best solution to our problems...
      who killed the electric car?? seen the movie? heard of Telsa motor car company? electricity can be generarated from sunshine. even on cloudy days.. In fact cloudy days are better because light is more evenlydistirbuted a solar panel can charge a bank of batteries in a day. run it through an inverted and you have AC that will run your appliances.. maybe even your welder if you build the system rignt.

      I'll bet you a box of donuts that if we were to start burning hydrogen on a grand scale, that too would affect the environemnt in its own way... how, im not quite sure bu tmy head is telling me it would have to do with too much moisture n the air...

      We truly are in a conundrum. I try to burn as little gasoline as possible. I ride a single cylinder m/c when i can (rain or shine or ice & snow.) When i have to deliver something I have my WTF truck with its over size V6 . I know ive had it up to my hat with the ever higher prices i have to pay for gas. every time i go to the pump its more money. Dont knwo abou tyou but this affect my pocket book. Soemthing is very wrong in the world. some can see, but it most cannot.. my 'good friend" has a saying that really bend me the wrong way... " I try not to look at the price of gas.. I just put it in and pay"
      he then drives all over the half acre...with no particular place to go. what a waste..of time money and life.. okay i could go on forever too so I =better stop.

      think alternates because gasoline is a dinosaur..really, or so weve been led to believe..
      Will it weld? I loooove electricity!

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      • #18
        Look into the study of thermodynamics instead of reading that hooplah about free energy and perpetual motion. The kind of people that write that s h it are the same ones that write the conspiracy theory BS. Please don't pollute this forum with said BS. I agree with DSW and the like and I can't stand to see misinformed people ranting about their grand scheme to save the world's environment. The answer doesn't lie in one solution. There are solutions and the engineers of the world are working it out. If you want to contribute then start recycling.

        "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

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        • #19
          there is a comp. producing air powered cars, no they are not perpetual motion. yes electricity is needed to pump up the car to go. can this be done by solar, yes, is it?? most likely not.
          as for only using 1 trillion gal in 100 years, we now have well over 1000X the auto's and gas users that we had at the start of the previous 100 year study. so we now use 100 years worth of gas in 10 or less compared to that of 1919.
          the electric car was invented about the same time as the gas powered one. but gas power was more efficient and cheaper. how do we change this now ?? mas production of electric cars is the only way to reduce the $$ of the battery's to run them. the $ of the battery's right not is as high or higher then the cost to produce the rest of the car. so the battery is the downfall of the electric car. also look at your battery powered drill, how many charges be for the battery will no longer hold a charge. then what?? buy a new battery, in most cases you can buy a new drill with 2 new battery (usually in a higher Voltage) for less $ than it is to replace the 2 battery's that came with the drill. so now your 3 year old car needs new battery's, what do you do ??? trash the hole car as the battery's are more than a new car. my 1951 GMC truck can be made good as new for $800 on a new gas motor, how many sets of $15,000 battery's do you think it would have gone threw ??? its still running now on its 2nd motor. find a set of battery's that last 25 years and power a car and you will be the auto industry giant.

          seems like every answer has its negative and positive. right now alternative options are not cost effective. but as they become more main stream the $ will go down. right now only those with big $ can afford them, but those people are not hurt by the fuel $. so it is really the eco freaks that are pushing the alternative options. with a little luck they will push enough to get the $$ down.

          am i willing to go green, use a wind mill & soler power for my hose, accept a little less spunk in my car so it can be electric ?? shore, i would love to. but with a family of 4 and my income its just not an option due to the $ of the above mentioned.

          if we want to grow corn for fuel, fine do so. but use the corn we would be exporting to the oil nations to turn into fuel, not the corn we should be eating. charge opec nations $150 a barrel for corn, we have it, they don't. same thing as oil. if they want to hoard it so too should we. we could balance our budget if we gave nothing away for one year, the result would be world economic disaster, but we would be in the black. several years ago some one did a report on how much the U.S. gives in aid to other countries (people mag. i think) to keep it stable. so why is it that opec nations cant boost oil production to keep oil prices stable as world demand rises ? yes they will run out sooner, but there is no reason why we cant come up with a better option be for then if we chose to do so. the bad side is if they boost production, gas price comes down and every one stops talking about other options, so again good VS bad in all situations, or is it that it takes bad to make us do good ?? its global warming that should make us look to other options, not the price of oil, but its the price of oil that gets us looking and talking about it, not global warming????????

          ok my rant is done.

          so whats the answer ???? soler?? wind turbines ??? water turbines ???


          oh ya, lets not forget the ones that think wind turbines are ugly. its ok to melt the poler ice caps, but i don't want to have to look at some ugly turbine off the coast of my summer cottage in the Hampton's ??????????

          oops i said my rant was over. LOL
          thanks for the help
          ......or..........
          hope i helped
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          feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. james@newyorkmetalart.com
          summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
          JAMES

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          • #20
            Air motors and air to motion and back are not efficient. Electron storage and conversion into and out of rotational motion has far surpassed mechanical energy storage methods such as compressed air. The amount of energy stored in a cubic foot of high pressure air is about the same as a table spoon of gas. You would need a real big tank to get any kind miles between fill ups.

            I don't understand the comment on the new Diesel motors. They are far more efficient than older motors. They produce more power per gallon than ever before and the best are well better than gas motors gallon for gallon. The newer direct injection diesels are far better at potential conversion than any consumer motors ever made and sold before. They turn more of the fuels potential energy into motion and less into waste heat than ever.
            The winning cars in ALMS racing are the Audi turbo direct injected diesels. Is the new truck and motor a lot bigger than the old one? Did the rig gain a bunch of weight?

            We have been and still are stupid in our energy use. We are in bed with nasty people in order to get more oil. We need to get off the oil kick and let them swap some oil for some of our abundant FOOD. We can feed ourselves and many others. Many oil producing countries cannot feed themselves. We need to build smart cars, houses and buildings and use the energy we have intelligently. Using some CFL lights is not going to do much of anything. We need to stop making stupid big cars and houses and buildings that waste energy.

            Energy? How much do you want? How about so much that the numbers are hard to write down. ALL the energy on the planet comes from and has always come from one place, the sun. All the stored energy in oil came from the sun. The wind the water is all driven by the sun. All the energy we could ever use is falling on us every day for free; all we need to do is catch it. More energy falls on us unused than we could ever get from all the oil ever refined. No green house gasses, no refining byproducts, no dams, no waste that is nasty for 10,000 years, no trucking or shipping it around. Catch it and use it to split water into Hydrogen fuel and Oxygen. Catch it and run our houses and buildings. Catch it when and where it shines and store it to use when we need it.

            We Americans can do anything when we put our minds and money to it. Let’s show the people with nothing but oil how it's done. Then ask them if they want to buy some of our abundant FOOD. Food does not fall out of the sky only energy does.
            Weekend wannab racer with some welders.

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            • #21
              One thing that all of us should keep in mind when discussing this is that energy (fuel for cars, electricity, heat) is just a portion of what oil is used for. Almost everything we use in day to day life is made from oil in some part, Even some medicine is made in part from oil.
              To all who contribute to this board.
              My sincere thanks , Pete.

              Pureox OA
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              • #22
                "Wind, solar and nuke don't produce enough energy and are not available everywhere. This leaves oil,( aren't we trying to not use this?), natural gas (a by product of oil last I looked), coal ( most people consider this very environmentally unfriendly) to generate electrical power for most people. If you are lucky enough to live near a hydroelectric dam it might work. However most environmentalists are also trying to do away with the dams! Bad for the fish and natural ecosystems, don't you know"

                Wind and solar can produce enough energy, we just have to start using them. You can eliminate your electric bill right now with present solar technology. There are enough goverment rebates that if you bought a system it would cost you less than your electric bill for the next 5-7 years (loan) and then free. If you produce a surplus you can sell it back to the power company at retail price. Now if you took all those solar panels that we should be placing wherever possible, you could generate hydrogen for combustion or fuel cell use. Shazam! no more foreign oil. We could actually become an energy exporter. Germany is leading the way right now, they are lining the autobahn with solar panels and have laws in place guaranteeing the buy back price of electricity. Unfortunately our country is run by people with Big oil interests.
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                • #23

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DSW View Post

                    The best way to use less oil to power vehicles is to increase MPG. This can most easily be done by getting rid of all the emmisions crud that has been tacked on to everything.
                    Thats funny because when I lived in AZ I got tired of replacing the black box, regulator, and battery for the electronic ignition on my Harley and replaced the whole schemeel with a magneto. I got a very pronounced increase in horse power, but the unexpected part was that the emissions were so clean when I took it in for inspection they were accusing me of running alcohol. They couldn't believe that just changing to a magneto could have that kind of effect. It surprised me too. The bike gets great mileage, but I really can't say if or how much the magneto affected the mileage.
                    To all who contribute to this board.
                    My sincere thanks , Pete.

                    Pureox OA
                    Westinghouse 300 amp AC stick
                    Miller Syncrowave 250
                    Hexacon 250 watt solder iron

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
                      What is a totaly underutalized recoup of energy is in the heat lost to braking. Although you could never recoup enough to completely power the same vehicle, think about potentially how much energy could be recovered if everytime a car, truck, train, etc., hits the brakes, that energy is transfered back to the power grid.

                      The energy can be created mechanically by driving generators/alternators or electromagnetically through induction.

                      If every single vehicle was so equiped, we might be coming home at night to plug our cars in to discharge the batteries and collect our credit back from the electric companies who now would require that much less fuel to create electricity
                      the world is way (ok, maybe not _way_:-) ahead of you

                      the hybrid cars (which have been around for close to 10 yrs now)
                      use dynamic braking to partly recharge their batteries. if you
                      put the brakes on "a little bit" or just slow-down by coasting,
                      or the like, they drive their generator from the wheels, producing
                      electrons, charging the battery.

                      diesel-electric locomotives have used dynamic braking for decades.
                      they switch their electric traction motors into generators, producing
                      electricity, which is dumped through huge resistor banks to generate
                      heat. no real energy savings here, of course. (but i seem to recall
                      that someone is starting to make hybrid rr locomotives now...)

                      and a lot of all-electric railroad systems (from trolley and street car
                      systems up to mainlines like the north east corridor in the us) use
                      dynamic braking and feed the generator power back into the
                      power distribution system. the problem with this (until the last 10-20
                      yrs or so) was that you had to carefully synchronize the phase of the
                      generated power to the phase in the power distribution system - if
                      you didn't, it could be spectacular... making small/reliable/etc widgets
                      to do this is a relatively new thing.

                      f

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Craig in Denver View Post
                        We need to be building nuclear power plants as fast as we can.
                        I agree this is a good solution to electrical power. Enlarging/refurbishing current hydro electric systems would also help. In 1984 My scout troop had a special tour of Grand Coulee Dam. The chief eng was the brother of our scoutmaster. They built a second generating plant as Phase II on the dam and it tripled the generating capacity while still maintaining the same gallons of water released. Basically less water went over the dam and more thru the turbines. At that time they installed all the tunnels for Phase III, which was a mirror image of Phase II. Chances of this ever being built are slim however with the then current environmental regs. They still wouldn't have increased the amount of water released even with the 3rd generating station.

                        Originally posted by SignWave View Post
                        I
                        I'll bet you a box of donuts that if we were to start burning hydrogen on a grand scale, that too would affect the environemnt in its own way... how, im not quite sure bu tmy head is telling me it would have to do with too much moisture n the air...
                        Yep got it in one. 1st it was CFC's then high sulfur coal emmisions, now CO2. my understanding is water vapor is part of the "green house gas" theory. More water vapor = more reflected and trapped sunlight = more heat. We've had iceages before, 7 I believe. Didn't it get warmer between them? I dont think neanderthal man and his fire was the cause of all of them.

                        Originally posted by burninbriar View Post
                        Thats funny because when I lived in AZ I got tired of replacing the black box, regulator, and battery for the electronic ignition on my Harley and replaced the whole schemeel with a magneto. I got a very pronounced increase in horse power, but the unexpected part was that the emissions were so clean when I took it in for inspection they were accusing me of running alcohol. They couldn't believe that just changing to a magneto could have that kind of effect. It surprised me too. The bike gets great mileage, but I really can't say if or how much the magneto affected the mileage.
                        My '71 Plymouth was similar. When I rebuilt the engine and put it on the road in 96, It would pass emissions standards as a new vehicle. It had 0 emissions equipment installed, just a good tune up on stock parts. Got 20mpg as a true full sized 4 door car.

                        Originally posted by Vicegrip View Post
                        I don't understand the comment on the new Diesel motors. They are far more efficient than older motors. They produce more power per gallon than ever before and the best are well better than gas motors gallon for gallon. The newer direct injection diesels are far better at potential conversion than any consumer motors ever made and sold before. They turn more of the fuels potential energy into motion and less into waste heat than ever.
                        The winning cars in ALMS racing are the Audi turbo direct injected diesels. Is the new truck and motor a lot bigger than the old one? Did the rig gain a bunch of weight?
                        I'd really like to understand this also! The old truck was a F250 4x4 7.3 turbo. Road weight on average 10.5-11.5k as scaled. It runs at 12.5k in the winter with the bal;ast for the plow. Milage regardles of weight 15 mpg city. It got this when I 1st got the truck and it weight 8.5K stripped and empty. New truck is an F550 4x4 with the 6.4 turbo (f350 was $4000 more and I couldn't get the body put on it). Aproximatly same rear ratio when adjusted for the larger tires. I took a long look at everything when I 1st started to get the truck as mpg was inmportant and I wanted to get the best posible mpg. Weight of the truck is 11.5k empty with the body, less than 12.5 with the tools loaded. MPG 8!

                        From what I have read on the ford site this is not uncommon. Everyone has commented on the dramatic drop in mpg. The cause the scrubber that dumps unburned fuel into the exhaust to burn off carbon. The eupopeans have a much better scrubber system that reduces emmisions signifigantly more and does not effect fuel ecconomy. The reason we can't use it is that our enviromental regs require at least 100K+ on parts the other system must be replaced at about 50k. From what I understand, those that are trying out the new scrubber deletes are getting signifigantly better mpgs. There are still some roblems however as all the stuff is tied in thru the computer and it gets cranky whenyou remove parts.

                        I'm all for doing everything to reduce oil useage in other areas especially the home. Just installing some of the newer insulations or heating systems can cut useage tremendousely. However vehicles are a poor area to play with.
                        Last edited by DSW; 04-29-2008, 11:30 AM.

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                        • #27
                          here is another interesting option

                          http://www.popsci.com/popsci/flat/bo...novator_2.html
                          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

                          -- Seneca the Younger

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                          • #28
                            The basics of turning tires back into oil has been around for many years. It's always been a question of economics. Is it cheaper to process the tire to recover the oil or is it cheaper to just pump out new oil. Recycling is almost always more expensive. ( it often also uses more fuel than you get.) In the late 80's or early 90's there was a number of companies that wanted to grind up tires and burn them as fuel to either run steam turbines or to breakdown limestone for cement. If I remember correctly, new environmental regs squashed this idea. It just became to costly to install all the scrubbers and dispose of all the residual waste.

                            I'm sort of currious about how they will dispose of all the residual waste however. Most likely, just as in trash to steam, the waste material will be full of heavy metals and other compounds that easily leach into the soil and ground water now that they have been released.


                            It looks like the idea might work now that oil is so high. Like so many of these ideas however, they only work as long as oil prices stay high. As soon as the price drops below a certain level they just are not worth it unfortunately.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SignWave View Post

                              I'll bet you a box of donuts that if we were to start burning hydrogen on a grand scale, that too would affect the environemnt in its own way... how, im not quite sure bu tmy head is telling me it would have to do with too much moisture n the air...
                              Acid is used when breaking water down to hydrogen and oxygen so that may pose a hazardous waste issue. As far as the moisture goes, I don't see that as a problem since you would not be creating water where there was none to begin with.
                              With petroleum, you take it from underground and burn it above ground adding a new component to the atmosphere. With hydrogen, you start with existing water, break it down to its elements, and then recombine it so you don't end up with anything you didn't start with, until you add byproducts of breaking it down. Such byproducts would be coalsmoke, if thats how you get the electricity, or nuclear waste if that method is used. Like I mentioned earlier, even if wind and solar is used, you have the acid witch is used in the process of breaking down the H2O.that may become a hazard.
                              To all who contribute to this board.
                              My sincere thanks , Pete.

                              Pureox OA
                              Westinghouse 300 amp AC stick
                              Miller Syncrowave 250
                              Hexacon 250 watt solder iron

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by burninbriar View Post
                                Acid is used when breaking water down to hydrogen and oxygen so that may pose a hazardous waste issue.

                                Are you sure about this? To my knowledge its just salt to make the water more conductive.

                                One of the by products of any kind of combustion is water, only hydrogen combustion makes JUST water.
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