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  • SavageSunJeep
    started a topic Tankless water heater

    Tankless water heater

    Not much welding but a lot of copper joint sweating on this install: Tankless water heater, water softener, whole house water filer. Writeup and pics:

    http://www.savagesun4x4.com/offtopic/

  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    I followed the lead of using sweated copper for my air management. I have to taps, one for fresh clean, dry air to run my plasma cutter and another that provides oil for my air tools.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Handy560
    replied
    Plumbing...

    I should have been a plumber... mine drives a Hummer.

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Thought you guys might get a kick out of this e mail exchange between me and a plumbing company:

    From my e mails:

    To: Mike
    Subject: Quote

    I am interested in converting my current tank hot water system to a tankless hot water system.

    If you are interested in bidding let me know.

    Thank you for your time and consideration.

    Don



    To: Don
    Subject: Quote

    Good Morning Don,
    That should not be a problem to stop by and talk to you. There is a $79.00 estimate charge, however if you do have us perform the work, you get that fee waived- credited back to you. Let me know if this works out and lets go from there.

    Mike



    To: Mike
    Subject: Quote

    Mike,
    Since I am asking you to stop by and bid on a tankless hot water install which is about a $2500 job+/- I simply cannot and will not spend $79 for you to bid. That said, I charge a bidders fee of, interestingly enough of $79. However if you are the winning bidder you get the fee waived-credited back to you.

    Upon receipt of your payment I will set a time and date and we can go from there.

    Don

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
    Yea, the guys working on nuclear reactors don't make that much a day...

    BTW I was looking threw your web site...

    Brought back some memories. I had a CJ6, I think it was a '74. It had a full roll cage and the CJ6 had a long wheelbase, like 107"; pretty stable for a jeep.

    I took out the straight 6 and rebuilt and install a 375 hp 402 from a friends '70 Chevelle that he built a new motor for. Muncie 4 speed with the original transfer case & 4 wheel drive. Custom headers and a vertex magneto. The Dana 44 rear end was the week spot, blew a few of those.

    That thing was so fun to drive, would left the front end a few inches when you banged second... of course if you didn't blow the rear end first. Friend of mine still has it about 15 years later, stored up at his farm...

    Maybe I can dig up a pic... but have no idea how to post.

    John
    John, all I can say is WOW, gosh would have liked to see that and even moreso a chance to drive it. Those must have been some FUN times in a "sleeper" like that. I can only imagine and I am laughing just thinking of the "SURPRISE" when the light turned green...Great to hear and thanks for the first laugh of the day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Handy560
    replied
    High Tech...

    Yea, the guys working on nuclear reactors don't make that much a day...

    BTW I was looking through your web site...

    Brought back some memories. I had a CJ6, I think it was a '74. It had a full roll cage and the CJ6 had a long wheelbase, like 107"; pretty stable for a jeep.

    I took out the straight 6 and rebuilt and install a 375 hp 402 from a friends '70 Chevelle that he built a new motor for. Muncie 4 speed with the original transfer case & 4 wheel drive. Custom headers and a vertex magneto. The Dana 44 rear end was the week spot, blew a few of those.

    That thing was so fun to drive, would lift the front end a few inches when you banged second... of course if you didn't blow the rear end first. Friend of mine still has it about 15 years later, stored up at his farm...

    Maybe I can dig up a pic... but have no idea how to post.

    John
    Last edited by Handy560; 03-06-2008, 12:30 PM. Reason: typos

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
    $800 / hour? He's nuts...

    Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

    J
    $800 per hour PLUS parts and the unit

    His claim was that "its high tech stuff" and " need to install and adjust the computer".

    Yea, that means plug it into the wall 110 socket and hit the On/Off switch...

    Leave a comment:


  • Handy560
    replied
    $$$

    $800 / hour? He's nuts...

    Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

    J

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
    Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

    Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

    Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

    Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

    Dryer, same as stove/range.

    As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

    J
    WOW, guess the plumbers union has a death grip on Chicago. Can only imagine what they charge...since I was quoted $800 per hour to do my Noritz tankless install. He is lucky I didn't punch out his front teeth so he could go pay a dentist to fix his mouth. Then he started BRAGGING about how easy of a job it was.

    Leave a comment:


  • Handy560
    replied
    clarification...

    Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

    Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

    Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

    Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

    Dryer, same as stove/range.

    As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

    J

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
    Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

    Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

    No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

    Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

    I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

    The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

    Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

    J
    Interesting. And of course you bring many good points.

    My only question/concern would be on flex pipe to the (or in this case not to the) water-heater. Having lived all over the US I have never seen a hard piped water heater. In fact I have never see a hard piped MOVEABLE device (stove, water heater, dryer etc. In my mind that sounds just plain scary. Especially so in that so many water heaters are found in the garage. Tap that with the bumper of your car and what gives first the car or a 450 lb water heater.

    NOTE: If anyone wants any close ups or pics of something I did not get, just ask.

    Leave a comment:


  • Handy560
    replied
    Code requirements...

    Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

    Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

    No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

    Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

    I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

    The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

    Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

    J

    Leave a comment:


  • shorerider16
    replied
    These inline heaters certainly look interesting. For our situation I don't think we could get away with using them solo, but we haved thought about installing one before our hot water heater as a preheater. The water coming into the house here gets mighty cold in the winter, we all enjoy our hot showers at the end of the day, and we don't exactly have water saver shower heads.

    Are there any electric versions out there, our house doesn't have natural gas?

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
    I am curious how well it does because I build houses in the Chicago area.

    It seems relative to your use and gpm requirements.

    I am very sure it works great for maybe one large bath and the kitchen or some other combination, but if you get into large baths with multiple shower heads, Jacuzzis and sevaral other baths etc... it all gets back to the gpm.

    Large units are are rated like 7 gpm at 45 degree rise, say from 60 to 105. If the incoming water is 40 in the winter you need a 90 degeree rise and the gpm falls to maybe the low 5's. I have done many baths that one shower head and a few body sprays and your at 10 gpm. not very green for sure, but you get the picture.

    Another consideration is the gas service. If you have adequate gas delivery, you stay at the specs. If you have a marginal supply and/or pressure, the performance starts to deteriorate. Example I saw the other day; plenty of hot water as long as the boiler was not firing at the same time.

    I have seen other builders use multiple units to overcome gpm limitations. This has its own issues with multiple flues, water piping from more than one location and more involved gas piping and gas service sizing...

    I think they are really coming along and are a great appliance for the right installation; definetely the trend for the future. I just wanted to make sure if someone decided to go for it, the would take the time to run the numbers.

    Let me know what kind of performance you are actually experiencing in those colder climates relative to the usage.

    Thanks,

    John
    Being a retired engineer with time on my hands I did my homework like most things I buy I have researched well, very well. That said some of the questions you brought up I can address.

    Yes it does depend upon your use and the gpm requirements and of course the "temp rise".

    The unit I used the Nortiz 0751 can certainly do the job for the wife and I here at the house in AZ. Current water temp at the faucet is about 62 degrees. But I can assure you that the temp rises quickly, it is nearly 80 today and by mid-summer hot water is almost not needed as the cold water tap is no longer cold.

    The units can be stacked quite easily and any plumber that knows which way water flows can do the install. Meeting your requirements for the homes you build can be done without much difficulty. I would get with the Nortiz folks and discuss with them your goals. Additionally by the sound of the houses you build, don't waste your time looking at anything other than the Noritz unit.

    If you incorporate the tankless unit into the house plans there is a lot of money to be saved. 1) Hang the unit on an outside wall and save $$ on venting costs thru the roof. 2) Direct connect to the gas meter with a 1in pipe and keep the runs as short as possible. My run was only about 10 ft. I just punched thru the garage wall and ran it straight down the base of the garage for 8 ft and connected my flex-hose.

    Me and a Jeeping buddy did the install and saving the $800 per hour the idiot plumber wanted for the "high tech equipment", "you know it has a computer control and we need to install that." YEA, you sure do, the install manual says you NEED TO PLUG the friggin thing into a 110 wall socket and they give you a 10ft cord, or you can get the optional 25 ft coord...DUH

    Granted you do not have to plug in a gas hot water heater, and yes the unit is computer controlled, meaning you need to set the temp...real complicated, push the UP arrow to raise the temp and push the down arrow to lower it. And don't forget to push the On/Off buttom. Guess $800 per hour does buy what it used to

    and that is it!

    Leave a comment:


  • TS-Off-Road
    replied
    Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
    I am curious how well it does because I build houses in the Chicago area.

    It seems relative to your use and gpm requirements.

    I am very sure it works great for maybe one large bath and the kitchen or some other combination, but if you get into large baths with multiple shower heads, Jacuzzis and sevaral other baths etc... it all gets back to the gpm.

    Large units are are rated like 7 gpm at 45 degree rise, say from 60 to 105. If the incoming water is 40 in the winter you need a 90 degeree rise and the gpm falls to maybe the low 5's. I have done many baths that one shower head and a few body sprays and your at 10 gpm. not very green for sure, but you get the picture.

    Another consideration is the gas service. If you have adequate gas delivery, you stay at the specs. If you have a marginal supply and/or pressure, the performance starts to deteriorate. Example I saw the other day; plenty of hot water as long as the boiler was not firing at the same time.

    I have seen other builders use multiple units to overcome gpm limitations. This has its own issues with multiple flues, water piping from more than one location and more involved gas piping and gas service sizing...

    I think they are really coming along and are a great appliance for the right installation; definetely the trend for the future. I just wanted to make sure if someone decided to go for it, the would take the time to run the numbers.

    Let me know what kind of performance you are actually experiencing in those colder climates relative to the usage.

    Thanks,

    John

    I installed mine to save $$. It will supply a regular bath shower and the dishwasher or washing machine simultaneously. If I had a Jacuzzi tub or 3 baths with multiple shower-heads in each and dual dishwashers in my kitchen, I would not be so concerned with energy savings and it would obviously be pointless to use one of these units. For what they are inteded for, they work great!

    BTW, My water supply is a 2" ground well +or- 30psi.
    Last edited by TS-Off-Road; 03-04-2008, 12:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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