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  • #16
    Code requirements...

    Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

    Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

    No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

    Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

    I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

    The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

    Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

    J
    John

    Thunderbolt AC/DC
    MM 175
    Maxstar 150 STL
    Blue Star 185 DX
    Spectrum 375

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
      Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

      Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

      No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

      Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

      I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

      The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

      Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

      J
      Interesting. And of course you bring many good points.

      My only question/concern would be on flex pipe to the (or in this case not to the) water-heater. Having lived all over the US I have never seen a hard piped water heater. In fact I have never see a hard piped MOVEABLE device (stove, water heater, dryer etc. In my mind that sounds just plain scary. Especially so in that so many water heaters are found in the garage. Tap that with the bumper of your car and what gives first the car or a 450 lb water heater.

      NOTE: If anyone wants any close ups or pics of something I did not get, just ask.
      Don
      Scottsdale, AZ
      www.savagesun4x4.com

      MillerMatic 211 AS
      Hypertherm PowerMax30
      Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
      Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
      Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
      10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
      DeWalt Chop Saw
      Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
      12 Ton Shop Press
      Optrel Satellite Helmet
      Miller Elite Helmet
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      Comment


      • #18
        clarification...

        Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

        Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

        Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

        Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

        Dryer, same as stove/range.

        As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

        J
        John

        Thunderbolt AC/DC
        MM 175
        Maxstar 150 STL
        Blue Star 185 DX
        Spectrum 375

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
          Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

          Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

          Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

          Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

          Dryer, same as stove/range.

          As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

          J
          WOW, guess the plumbers union has a death grip on Chicago. Can only imagine what they charge...since I was quoted $800 per hour to do my Noritz tankless install. He is lucky I didn't punch out his front teeth so he could go pay a dentist to fix his mouth. Then he started BRAGGING about how easy of a job it was.
          Don
          Scottsdale, AZ
          www.savagesun4x4.com

          MillerMatic 211 AS
          Hypertherm PowerMax30
          Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
          Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
          Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
          10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
          DeWalt Chop Saw
          Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
          12 Ton Shop Press
          Optrel Satellite Helmet
          Miller Elite Helmet
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #20
            $$$

            $800 / hour? He's nuts...

            Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

            J
            John

            Thunderbolt AC/DC
            MM 175
            Maxstar 150 STL
            Blue Star 185 DX
            Spectrum 375

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
              $800 / hour? He's nuts...

              Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

              J
              $800 per hour PLUS parts and the unit

              His claim was that "its high tech stuff" and " need to install and adjust the computer".

              Yea, that means plug it into the wall 110 socket and hit the On/Off switch...
              Don
              Scottsdale, AZ
              www.savagesun4x4.com

              MillerMatic 211 AS
              Hypertherm PowerMax30
              Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
              Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
              Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
              10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
              DeWalt Chop Saw
              Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
              12 Ton Shop Press
              Optrel Satellite Helmet
              Miller Elite Helmet
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #22
                High Tech...

                Yea, the guys working on nuclear reactors don't make that much a day...

                BTW I was looking through your web site...

                Brought back some memories. I had a CJ6, I think it was a '74. It had a full roll cage and the CJ6 had a long wheelbase, like 107"; pretty stable for a jeep.

                I took out the straight 6 and rebuilt and install a 375 hp 402 from a friends '70 Chevelle that he built a new motor for. Muncie 4 speed with the original transfer case & 4 wheel drive. Custom headers and a vertex magneto. The Dana 44 rear end was the week spot, blew a few of those.

                That thing was so fun to drive, would lift the front end a few inches when you banged second... of course if you didn't blow the rear end first. Friend of mine still has it about 15 years later, stored up at his farm...

                Maybe I can dig up a pic... but have no idea how to post.

                John
                Last edited by Handy560; 03-06-2008, 12:30 PM. Reason: typos
                John

                Thunderbolt AC/DC
                MM 175
                Maxstar 150 STL
                Blue Star 185 DX
                Spectrum 375

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
                  Yea, the guys working on nuclear reactors don't make that much a day...

                  BTW I was looking threw your web site...

                  Brought back some memories. I had a CJ6, I think it was a '74. It had a full roll cage and the CJ6 had a long wheelbase, like 107"; pretty stable for a jeep.

                  I took out the straight 6 and rebuilt and install a 375 hp 402 from a friends '70 Chevelle that he built a new motor for. Muncie 4 speed with the original transfer case & 4 wheel drive. Custom headers and a vertex magneto. The Dana 44 rear end was the week spot, blew a few of those.

                  That thing was so fun to drive, would left the front end a few inches when you banged second... of course if you didn't blow the rear end first. Friend of mine still has it about 15 years later, stored up at his farm...

                  Maybe I can dig up a pic... but have no idea how to post.

                  John
                  John, all I can say is WOW, gosh would have liked to see that and even moreso a chance to drive it. Those must have been some FUN times in a "sleeper" like that. I can only imagine and I am laughing just thinking of the "SURPRISE" when the light turned green...Great to hear and thanks for the first laugh of the day.
                  Don
                  Scottsdale, AZ
                  www.savagesun4x4.com

                  MillerMatic 211 AS
                  Hypertherm PowerMax30
                  Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
                  Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
                  Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
                  10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
                  DeWalt Chop Saw
                  Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
                  12 Ton Shop Press
                  Optrel Satellite Helmet
                  Miller Elite Helmet
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thought you guys might get a kick out of this e mail exchange between me and a plumbing company:

                    From my e mails:

                    To: Mike
                    Subject: Quote

                    I am interested in converting my current tank hot water system to a tankless hot water system.

                    If you are interested in bidding let me know.

                    Thank you for your time and consideration.

                    Don



                    To: Don
                    Subject: Quote

                    Good Morning Don,
                    That should not be a problem to stop by and talk to you. There is a $79.00 estimate charge, however if you do have us perform the work, you get that fee waived- credited back to you. Let me know if this works out and lets go from there.

                    Mike



                    To: Mike
                    Subject: Quote

                    Mike,
                    Since I am asking you to stop by and bid on a tankless hot water install which is about a $2500 job+/- I simply cannot and will not spend $79 for you to bid. That said, I charge a bidders fee of, interestingly enough of $79. However if you are the winning bidder you get the fee waived-credited back to you.

                    Upon receipt of your payment I will set a time and date and we can go from there.

                    Don
                    Don
                    Scottsdale, AZ
                    www.savagesun4x4.com

                    MillerMatic 211 AS
                    Hypertherm PowerMax30
                    Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
                    Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
                    Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
                    10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
                    DeWalt Chop Saw
                    Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
                    12 Ton Shop Press
                    Optrel Satellite Helmet
                    Miller Elite Helmet
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Plumbing...

                      I should have been a plumber... mine drives a Hummer.
                      John

                      Thunderbolt AC/DC
                      MM 175
                      Maxstar 150 STL
                      Blue Star 185 DX
                      Spectrum 375

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I followed the lead of using sweated copper for my air management. I have to taps, one for fresh clean, dry air to run my plasma cutter and another that provides oil for my air tools.
                        Attached Files
                        Don
                        Scottsdale, AZ
                        www.savagesun4x4.com

                        MillerMatic 211 AS
                        Hypertherm PowerMax30
                        Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
                        Bernard 200 Amp Q Gun
                        Milwaukee Band-saw/stand
                        10 Angle Grinders 8, 4 1/2" -2, 7"
                        DeWalt Chop Saw
                        Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
                        12 Ton Shop Press
                        Optrel Satellite Helmet
                        Miller Elite Helmet
                        sigpic

                        Comment

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