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Tankless water heater

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  • #16
    Code requirements...

    Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

    Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

    No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

    Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

    I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

    The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

    Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

    J

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
      Keep in mind when you are building a house for someone else everything must be done by a licensed and insured plumber, electrician, hvac contractor etc. All installations are closely inspected and must be up to code.

      Codes very greatly. For example, here in Chicago and nearby suburbs, flexible gas pipe is only allowed for ranges and ovens from the wall valve to the appliance, all electrical wiring is in conduit, no romex or bx. All copper pipe is type m or better, floor drains for every hot water heater, furnace and washing machine...

      No water heater would have a cord; it would have to be hard wired. No flexible gas pipe, black pipe. Out the wall venting is allowed on a very limited basis due to distance and hight requirements, etc.

      Also, in AZ, the energy required for heat is minmal. Here you already have a 1 1/2" to 2" gas main to run a few furnaces, dryers and stove. although the insta hot units are variable output, you need to have the gas for full output which can involve a considerable amount of piping; to supply a 3/4" appliance, you need 1" raisers for a single floor and larger for multiple floors and appliances. You will have more plumbing than a submarine.

      I was not really looking to start a debate, just that many customers have come to me wanting to install one that they saw at HDepot or somewhere else to replace their existing system and it just is not always that simple. Sometimes it is simple.

      The majority of the homes I am dealing with use in-floor hydronic radiant heat with ultra high effeciency boilers (95%+) and high recovery which also can produce the hot water through an indirect tank. These systems are variable flame and crank somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 btu depending on the load. They do not produce continuos hot water but pretty close (70 gal tank typical, 90 available) and with a mixing valve you can create a huge volume of hot water and heat for the house, the jacuzzi, the garage, the basement floor and the sidewalk too! (snow melt)

      Well, as long as there's enough hot water to wash the grit outta my hair...

      J
      Interesting. And of course you bring many good points.

      My only question/concern would be on flex pipe to the (or in this case not to the) water-heater. Having lived all over the US I have never seen a hard piped water heater. In fact I have never see a hard piped MOVEABLE device (stove, water heater, dryer etc. In my mind that sounds just plain scary. Especially so in that so many water heaters are found in the garage. Tap that with the bumper of your car and what gives first the car or a 450 lb water heater.

      NOTE: If anyone wants any close ups or pics of something I did not get, just ask.

      Comment


      • #18
        clarification...

        Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

        Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

        Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

        Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

        Dryer, same as stove/range.

        As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

        J

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
          Gas supply to hot water heaters is black pipe, no flexible connection.

          Water supply to hot water heater, no flex connectors, galvanized pipe or type m copper, dielectric union or brass nipples to heater.

          Hot water heaters now must be sealed combustion chamber.

          Gas supply to a stove is black pipe to behind appliance, dirt leg and valve, then flexible gas supply; supply MUST be stainless steel.

          Dryer, same as stove/range.

          As far as a hot water heater in the garage, thats not a problem; you can't put the heater in the garage. Since the garage is not a conditioned space, there is no plumbing as it would freeze.

          J
          WOW, guess the plumbers union has a death grip on Chicago. Can only imagine what they charge...since I was quoted $800 per hour to do my Noritz tankless install. He is lucky I didn't punch out his front teeth so he could go pay a dentist to fix his mouth. Then he started BRAGGING about how easy of a job it was.

          Comment


          • #20
            $$$

            $800 / hour? He's nuts...

            Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

            J

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
              $800 / hour? He's nuts...

              Here they charge between $900 - $1200 per opening, meaning to roughin in 1 sink, or tub, or shower, etc. Includes material for water and drain, no fixtures. Complicated showers etc. charged at 1.5 or more openings...

              J
              $800 per hour PLUS parts and the unit

              His claim was that "its high tech stuff" and " need to install and adjust the computer".

              Yea, that means plug it into the wall 110 socket and hit the On/Off switch...

              Comment


              • #22
                High Tech...

                Yea, the guys working on nuclear reactors don't make that much a day...

                BTW I was looking through your web site...

                Brought back some memories. I had a CJ6, I think it was a '74. It had a full roll cage and the CJ6 had a long wheelbase, like 107"; pretty stable for a jeep.

                I took out the straight 6 and rebuilt and install a 375 hp 402 from a friends '70 Chevelle that he built a new motor for. Muncie 4 speed with the original transfer case & 4 wheel drive. Custom headers and a vertex magneto. The Dana 44 rear end was the week spot, blew a few of those.

                That thing was so fun to drive, would lift the front end a few inches when you banged second... of course if you didn't blow the rear end first. Friend of mine still has it about 15 years later, stored up at his farm...

                Maybe I can dig up a pic... but have no idea how to post.

                John
                Last edited by Handy560; 03-06-2008, 11:30 AM. Reason: typos

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Handy560 View Post
                  Yea, the guys working on nuclear reactors don't make that much a day...

                  BTW I was looking threw your web site...

                  Brought back some memories. I had a CJ6, I think it was a '74. It had a full roll cage and the CJ6 had a long wheelbase, like 107"; pretty stable for a jeep.

                  I took out the straight 6 and rebuilt and install a 375 hp 402 from a friends '70 Chevelle that he built a new motor for. Muncie 4 speed with the original transfer case & 4 wheel drive. Custom headers and a vertex magneto. The Dana 44 rear end was the week spot, blew a few of those.

                  That thing was so fun to drive, would left the front end a few inches when you banged second... of course if you didn't blow the rear end first. Friend of mine still has it about 15 years later, stored up at his farm...

                  Maybe I can dig up a pic... but have no idea how to post.

                  John
                  John, all I can say is WOW, gosh would have liked to see that and even moreso a chance to drive it. Those must have been some FUN times in a "sleeper" like that. I can only imagine and I am laughing just thinking of the "SURPRISE" when the light turned green...Great to hear and thanks for the first laugh of the day.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thought you guys might get a kick out of this e mail exchange between me and a plumbing company:

                    From my e mails:

                    To: Mike
                    Subject: Quote

                    I am interested in converting my current tank hot water system to a tankless hot water system.

                    If you are interested in bidding let me know.

                    Thank you for your time and consideration.

                    Don



                    To: Don
                    Subject: Quote

                    Good Morning Don,
                    That should not be a problem to stop by and talk to you. There is a $79.00 estimate charge, however if you do have us perform the work, you get that fee waived- credited back to you. Let me know if this works out and lets go from there.

                    Mike



                    To: Mike
                    Subject: Quote

                    Mike,
                    Since I am asking you to stop by and bid on a tankless hot water install which is about a $2500 job+/- I simply cannot and will not spend $79 for you to bid. That said, I charge a bidders fee of, interestingly enough of $79. However if you are the winning bidder you get the fee waived-credited back to you.

                    Upon receipt of your payment I will set a time and date and we can go from there.

                    Don

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Plumbing...

                      I should have been a plumber... mine drives a Hummer.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I followed the lead of using sweated copper for my air management. I have to taps, one for fresh clean, dry air to run my plasma cutter and another that provides oil for my air tools.
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