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  • #16
    Originally posted by bretsk2500 View Post
    ain't that the truth... one of the state inspectors here forced the electricians to completely rewire a ticket booth across the driveway from a building we were putting up at a local HS. the pisser is that the ticket booth had NOTHING to do with our work, no power for it came from our building. the guy was famous for that kind of ****. grrr.
    That would be considered an "EXTRA" to the GC
    Bob Kraemer/Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Miller 330 ABP
    Tree Mill W/DRO
    South Bend Lathe
    Tennsmith Brake
    Tennsmith Shear
    Beverly Throatless Shear
    JD/2 Bead roller
    O/A Torch
    Drill Press
    Grinders, Belt Sander Etc!
    And more hand tools than I know what to do with

    Comment


    • #17
      Correct 3 wire to run

      1 black wire - hot or 120 V
      1 white wire - negative which is circuit ground
      1 uninsulated or bare wire - building ground
      Think Alot
      Learn Alot
      Read Alot
      And Then Do It Again & Again

      Comment


      • #18
        " reidentifying " a wire with tape, marker or whatever won't make ot past a code inspector.

        Let's not rehash the GND/NEU thing here. In a single phase service both GND and NEUTRAL are the same thing, physically and electrically.

        Simply put he wants to use 12/2 and the inspector wants 12/3.

        He could use 12/2 but it wouldn't be up to LOCAL code.

        Keyword LOCAL as NEC is a guide. Local gov't can demand more.

        I would say if you were not being inspected 12/2 would work -IF- the bare gnd conductor is of the same wire gage.

        It makes no sense to me ... in my house a 240V Dryer has a 3 wire hookup, in a new house it is 4 wire. The new codes demand a Red / Black / White / Green(bare) wire. When in fact on single phase wiring the Green & Whites are tied together at the power company transformer and your house.

        Oddly when you read the NEC code they tell you ... " If you move a 3 wire appliance into a new installation you will have to have a 4 wire power cable installed "

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bob Kraemer View Post
          If the cable is 12/2 w/gnd you are allowed to identify the white conductor with a permanent marker or black tape to be used as phase conductor only if it part of a cable assembly IE: romex, MC cable BX etc!
          If the wires are installed in conduit you are not allowed to do this, with the exception being the conductors are over #6 awg.
          But as the others stated the inspector has jurisdiction over what the code says.
          Thank you Bob. You confirmed what I thought......
          I picked up a copy of Wiring Simplified 41st Edition today....which by the way is based on the 2005 NEC. Sure enough on page 51 it states, " white can be used for ungrounded purposes when it is part of a cable assembly brought to a switch or for a 240-volt load, but even here it must be reidentified as other than white at all visible points and at termination."

          Also finally talked to the electrician here that installed my 200 amp service. His comment?? "The guys an idiot" ....... hmmm

          I also understand what harcosparky is saying about LOCAL code. We are talking Ottumwa IA here not New York City ..... I have read the local code ...all one page of it and it says nothing about the reidentification of conductors. I don't see how using 12-3 instead of 12-2 would be considered an upgrade to the code....especially when that just leaves one conductor sitting in the box. Your correct though.....the inspector non the less does have the final say.

          Thank you again Bob for shooting from the hip and talking straight.
          Best Regard,
          __________________
          Jesse
          aka Neo

          Miller Passport
          Miller 225G
          Red 255
          VIctor O/A
          Wish list:
          Maxstar 150STH or
          Syncrowave 250DX
          A Dynasty 300 if I am wishing really hard..

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by harcosparky View Post
            " reidentifying " a wire with tape, marker or whatever won't make ot past a code inspector.

            Let's not rehash the GND/NEU thing here. In a single phase service both GND and NEUTRAL are the same thing, physically and electrically.

            Simply put he wants to use 12/2 and the inspector wants 12/3.

            He could use 12/2 but it wouldn't be up to LOCAL code.

            Keyword LOCAL as NEC is a guide. Local gov't can demand more.

            I would say if you were not being inspected 12/2 would work -IF- the bare gnd conductor is of the same wire gage.

            It makes no sense to me ... in my house a 240V Dryer has a 3 wire hookup, in a new house it is 4 wire. The new codes demand a Red / Black / White / Green(bare) wire. When in fact on single phase wiring the Green & Whites are tied together at the power company transformer and your house.

            Oddly when you read the NEC code they tell you ... " If you move a 3 wire appliance into a new installation you will have to have a 4 wire power cable installed "
            Don't mean to disagree with you & no offence intended but the neutral or grounded conductor are not the same thing as a ground wire or equipment ground. They preform 2 different functions. The neutral is a load carrying conductor that is why you have to count all neutrals when sizing conduit or for derating purposes. Yes they are tied together at the main panel & transformer that is why the neutral is also called a grounded conductor
            The reason you have to install a 4 wire cord on dryers equipped with a 3 wire cord in a new house is because the neutral is a load carrying conductor. You have to remove the bonding jumper on the center tap lug in the dryer attach the neutral there and install a lug or other attachment means to ground the dryer.
            An example of what the neutral wire does is a light bulb. For a light bulb to work you have to have what is called controlled resistance. In essence you are creating a short circuit between the hot & neutral causing the filament to glow, but it is not enough to cause the circuit breaker or fuse to trip.
            A ground wire will do the same thing, but since it doesn't have any insulation around the conductor to protect it & other conductors from the heat created, you cannot use the ground wire as a neutral conductor.
            The intent of the ground wire is to provided a direct path to ground in case of a short circuit.
            I am not an engineer but I hope I helped to clarify the difference.
            Bob Kraemer/Licensed Electrical Contractor

            Miller 330 ABP
            Tree Mill W/DRO
            South Bend Lathe
            Tennsmith Brake
            Tennsmith Shear
            Beverly Throatless Shear
            JD/2 Bead roller
            O/A Torch
            Drill Press
            Grinders, Belt Sander Etc!
            And more hand tools than I know what to do with

            Comment


            • #21
              I got to agree with Bob and as Harko says in another part, "I dont understand". That I will agree with, not to be insulting but this is a particular area a lot of people want to re-invent because they "dont understand why". I get that every once in a while and I got to say, do it the way we tell you, when you get to the day when you finally do understand the work you did will still be right.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sberry View Post
                do it the way we tell you, when you get to the day when you finally do understand the work you did will still be right.


                This should go on a list of famous quotes somewhere . . . I gotta remember this one, I could use it myself often in real life explaining things to people (with permission of course???)

                Comment


                • #23
                  We see this setup when old fuse boxes are used as subs, they were designed as service entrance equipment with internally bonded neutrals. You see people use them or leave them all kinds of "modified " circuits with those. I design a new service today, the old had a sub fed with 4 wire, both the white and the ground land on the same bar and the can wasnt bonded. The guy misses one bar, creates a lot of potential problems because he reasons that because both wires land on the same bar in one panel that they should in them all.
                  Another handyman type told the owner we need some ground rods and a wire because the second panel didnt have that setup.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    So whats the word for the day???? short circuit interuption,,, ha,,, ground fault protection!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sberry View Post
                      Ido it the way we tell you, when you get to the day when you finally do understand the work you did will still be right.
                      That is funny and I was not even going to bring up the issue about the 3-wire feed into the sub-panel at the garage that passed inspection ......installed by my locally licensed electrician BTW. ...
                      Best Regard,
                      __________________
                      Jesse
                      aka Neo

                      Miller Passport
                      Miller 225G
                      Red 255
                      VIctor O/A
                      Wish list:
                      Maxstar 150STH or
                      Syncrowave 250DX
                      A Dynasty 300 if I am wishing really hard..

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Is it the panel that is the service to the garage? Some 3 wire feeds are legal but I dont think its a good idea, there are so many utilities, someone comes along and puts a phone line, cable TV or metal gas line in and no one realizes it throws the electric out of compliance.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bob Kraemer View Post
                          An example of what the neutral wire does is a light bulb. For a light bulb to work you have to have what is called controlled resistance. In essence you are creating a short circuit between the hot & neutral causing the filament to glow, but it is not enough to cause the circuit breaker or fuse to trip.
                          .

                          The light bulb is not a true short circuit. While it will read a short with a meter as soon as the element heats up the resistance will go up. This is what prevents it from blowing fuses or tripping breakers.
                          Dennis


                          Thermal Arc 185-TSW
                          Millermatic Challenger 172
                          VictorO/A
                          Atlas Craftsman 12 by 24 Lathe
                          Esab PCM-875
                          Wholesale Tool Mill-Drill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by leeschaumberg View Post
                            1 black wire - hot or 120 V
                            1 white wire - negative which is circuit ground
                            1 uninsulated or bare wire - building ground


                            That's a classic example of why folks get into trouble with electrical wiring. The hot, or line, is always a color other than white, green, or in some oddball applications, orange. The white wire is always the grounded conductor, in that it is the return path for the unbalanced line-to-neutral loads that are 120V. It is not "negative" (this is AC), or "circuit ground".

                            The equipment grounding conductor (not "building ground") is either bare or colored green. If everything is hunky-dory, this wire will never carry current. If a ground fault occurs in a piece of equipment or an appliance that is connected to an "equipment grounding conductor", the result is an instant trip of the breaker or a blown fuse.

                            The NEC Art. 200.7 (C) 1 permits re-identification of the white wire as a current carrying conductor (just as Neophyte thinks it does) if the wire is contained in a common sheath with the black and bare (or green) wire. But, as mention somewhere in this thread, you'll need to meet the LOCAL code as well as the NEC. If you can't convince the AHJ that you're right, you'll have to do it their way in order to pass inspection! That's sparky life!

                            Hank
                            ...from the Gadget Garage
                            Millermatic 210 w/3035, BWE
                            Handler 210 w/DP3035
                            TA185TSW
                            Victor O/A "J" series, SuperRange

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sberry View Post
                              Is it the panel that is the service to the garage?
                              Right. It is the panel for the garage that comes off of the service entrance at the house. I also have a RV subpanel coming off of the garage box. I plan on pulling another line into the garage box when we get time. Your also correct about utilities to the garage. None permitted without the fourth wire. I'm catching on to this wiring thing .....thankfully the learning cure from this end no longer looks like a globe.

                              Right now I am trying to get my insulation in so I can put drywall up while my son in-law is here for Christmas.

                              It's not going to be a Bulldog kind of shop. But that's how life is when you move into town.

                              BTW just looked at the PVC going form the house to the garage.... It is Schedule 40. That's not legal either is it??? I thought it had to be Schedule 80.
                              Best Regard,
                              __________________
                              Jesse
                              aka Neo

                              Miller Passport
                              Miller 225G
                              Red 255
                              VIctor O/A
                              Wish list:
                              Maxstar 150STH or
                              Syncrowave 250DX
                              A Dynasty 300 if I am wishing really hard..

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Well I undersand clearly....

                                I have a neutral coming out of the dryer - the WHITE wire.

                                I have a Chassis Gnd coming out of the dryer - the Green -or- bare wire

                                They go to the same place electrically and mechanically but do two different jobs!

                                Makes sense to me!

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