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Miller Vs Hobart

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  • metalpuddler
    started a topic Miller Vs Hobart

    Miller Vs Hobart

    In another post I complained about my Miller 180 Autoset using .023 wire welding inconsistently. Just for fun I changed my DVI-2 over to .023 and it worked flawlessly, so I must come to the conclusion that it is the machine.
    So now I am looking at the Hobart 190 handler with spool gun and have a couple of questions.

    1. Will the 190 accept Miller/Bernard Mig guns or are the electrical and physical connection proprietary.
    2. I read on the forum that the 140 can only use a 10' gun, does that apply to the 190 as well?
    3. Is there any (miller type autoset feature) on the 190. The main reason I am trying to get away from the Miller. I like to weld a little wetter than the machine will allow, apparently from the "wire speed tracking system" on board the Miller. I want to set the machine where I want it, not what the machine wants to do.

    What I am trying to do specifically is low heat welding on ornamental projects where the appearance of the weld is more important than the structural integrity. More importantly I need to weld with low heat to reduce the amount of warpage and to spend less time using heat to take the warpage out. I know the amount of warpage can be controlled by proper welding technique and placement of welds but it is just not practical for me to flip a project over and over, much faster to heat straighten when done.

    For the complete story > http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...istent-welding
    Last edited by metalpuddler; 05-11-2014, 10:44 AM.

  • Danny
    replied
    Originally posted by metalpuddler View Post
    The "smooth start" feature definitely has its advantages, just not for me in the shop making short stitch welds. I am however going to keep the 180 as my main "in the field" welder. I should get my new Hobart machine by Friday and if it works the way I hope it does (no smooth start) I am going to mount on a swing arm over my welding table (I've always wanted one like that) during the memorial weekend.
    Darn, I was going to reply yesterday evening that the PowerMIG 180C may be the better option for you over the Hobart. Don't get me wrong, the Handler 190 and 210 MVP ( I currently own a 210 MVP) are both very good units. They most definitely don't have the run-in issue that you are experiencing with your MM 180. Anyway, I was thinking the PM 180C might be a better option because of it's wire drive. I haven't tried it on my 180C, but I suspect the drive wouldn't have an issue with a 12' gun lead. On the Handler units, Hobart isn't going to recommend using any longer than a 10' gun lead. The power pin end on the Hobart is different than a Miller. It's difficult to find a gun lead longer than 10' that fits the Hobart unit. You might be able to get a longer gun lead for a Handler through HTP America.

    You have the DVI 2 so I'm guessing the fact that the Handler is a tapped voltage unit, and PM 180c is a variable voltage unit is not a major concern.

    Leave a comment:


  • metalpuddler
    replied
    The "smooth start" feature definitely has its advantages, just not for me in the shop making short stitch welds. I am however going to keep the 180 as my main "in the field" welder. I should get my new Hobart machine by Friday and if it works the way I hope it does (no smooth start) I am going to mount on a swing arm over my welding table (I've always wanted one like that) during the memorial weekend.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cgotto6
    replied
    I always assumed the run in was based on an equation that uses the set wfs as a factor. So with .023 you nullify the variance of wire diameter by running a higher wfs to maintain correct metal deposition rate. Is this not true? If it's not, seems like a really stupid feature to not compensate for various wire diameters.

    I totally understand the frustration and desire to have a happy medium set up for all the welds you are producing to increase production.
    Last edited by Cgotto6; 05-20-2014, 03:05 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • metalpuddler
    replied
    Cgotto said "The machine doesn't know what size wire is loaded into it", that's exactly the point I am trying to make. Regardless of wire size the machine is going to push the same measurement of wire out when you initially pull the trigger, so it seems to me if your running .035 you get more filler material that if running .023 and vice versa. Does that make sense? Anyway I have posted a video to you tube that may explain my issues better that I can put in writing. Again I have this issue only with the MM180 autoset and not with my DVI or Lincoln 125. With those two machines I can jump from weld to weld nonstop and no need for fine adjustment. I know some will think this is petty but this is what I do for a living, time is money, and I don't have time to adjust my machine back and forth all day. In conclusion, the mm180 autoset is a fine machine, it welds just fine in many applications but just not this one particular application that I do most frequently.

    http://youtu.be/o8A0oDtFBL8

    Leave a comment:


  • Cgotto6
    replied
    The machine doesn't know what size wire is loaded into it, so that wont make the smooth start feature change any preset preferences. Likely your settings are just not as dialed with .023 as they are with the heavier wires (which I assume you have ran more of based on your posts). The only way the machine "knows" .023 is in it is if you are running auto set. Sorry for questioning your mig experience, just based on what your symptoms were was leading me to think the operator may be the culprit. I am now wondering if your wfs is just out of the "operating window" low? Have you tried really stepping up the wire speed? Meaning, screw the door chart, try something comical and see how it runs? Just throwing out ideas.

    Also, your saying you are going to look into a machine with no run in, I don't think this is your problem as many have posted here with great results with the small millermatics that have smooth start. It leads me to think settings, consumables, faulty machinery, or something of this nature. I think you would be throwing the 180 out with out properly diagnosing the issue. Good luck with solving the issues.
    Last edited by Cgotto6; 05-19-2014, 03:48 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • metalpuddler
    replied
    Thanks for chiming in Danny, that was the term D.... at Miller tech support used and I couldn't remember what he called it so I used the term "hot start", my bad. I assume the smaller the wire the more pronounced the "run in" will be. Hence why it isn't so bad with .035 wire. I don't have any problems stitch welding with my DVI or my Lincoln 125, so I don't believe my mig welding skills need to be practiced since I have been pulling a trigger for almost fourty years now and have never experienced this issue. So now I am going to look for a machine with no wire run in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cgotto6
    replied
    I have never noticed any undesirable conditions under arc starting with my 180 or my friends 211. What's supposed to be the problem?

    Leave a comment:


  • Danny
    replied
    The MM 180 doesn't have hot start. The 180 has a fixed level of "run-in". Miller is calling this "smooth-start". The MM 140 and MM 211 have this smooth-start feature too.

    Hobart's Handler 190 and Handler 210 MVP don't have this run-in feature. The arc starts on the Handler units are very responsive and smooth with out it. To date I've never experienced a poppy arc start from a Handler 187, 190, or 210.

    Lincoln's PowerMIG 180 doesn't have this run-in either. The PM 180 arc starts are as good as the Hobart Handlers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cgotto6
    replied
    My 180 does not have "hot start", I suspect none do. Sounds like you need to practice your mig skills.

    Leave a comment:


  • metalpuddler
    replied
    I think I have found my problem, a combination of my welding technique and this machine. It appears that I am trying to compensate for the initial wire speed (hot start) when I first pull the trigger by increasing the wire speed or reduce voltage for stitch welding. In a perfect world all joints would be uniformly prepped with the same gap start to finish. Unfortunately for me, especially out in the field, some joints may start closed and gap increases down the weld joint (keep in mind I am mostly working with thin gauge material) therefor the stitch weld becomes necessary. I have not had this issue with any other welder...ever. My DVI performs perfectly in this situation as does my old Lincoln 125.
    All that being said if I prep a piece of 3/16 plate the 180 works perfect with the hot start from start to finish. I don't think there is any way to disable this feature. So I will stick with my initial conclusion that I need a different machine that will function with the settings I want to use and not a machine that will "help" me weld. Unfortunately it seems all of the small portable machines incorporate this feature.

    Leave a comment:


  • bridgeportBJ
    replied
    Auto Set 180

    My good friend has a 180 and welds with .023 all the time. you have something
    wrong someplace.
    B.J.

    Leave a comment:


  • JSFAB
    replied
    Originally posted by AKweldshop View Post
    Why is that??

    ITW owns Miller and Hobart....

    There mvp plugs interchange, gun parts interchange, mainly the only thing different is the color.

    Please chime in....

    ~John
    The first statement was "Miller owns Hobart". That's wrong. ITW owns both Hobart and Miller, and since Hobart also had a filler metals division, the government made ITW divest itself of anything Hobart over 250 amps. But MILLER DOES NOT OWN HOBART!!!!!!

    There are only a couple machines identical between Hobart and Miller.

    Hobart has its own engineering department, as does Miller. Hobart welders in each class, offered in common with Miller, weld considerably different (and in most cases, better).

    Yes, they do share some parts. They do NOT have common wiring diagrams.

    I'm in the business, my only income from the last 25 years or so has been thru my welding business. I have multiple engine drive welders running from 250 amps up to 600 amps. I had a need for a dedicated MIG machine, I chose the HH210MVP, have not regretted it since. In only two years, it has more than paid for itself, welding everything from 20 ga. up to 3/8". I just set it according to the door chart, run a test weld, make adjustments, and weld away. Almost seamless, idiot-proof. You can't set it wrong.

    I don't even care about the plastic drive roll assembly. Probably saved me a few bucks buying it, and if you saw it, you'd probably realize it is better than the aluminum one they replaced it with, for political reasons only. The rollers themselves are steel.

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  • BukitCase
    replied
    John, I agree that Hobart and Miller machines share a few things as you said - but one thing they do NOT share is fine tuning - the Hobart 210, like most of their machines, has "click stops", 7 of them, to adjust the voltage while the MM211 uses an infinitely variable control for both volts and amps.

    In fact, every miller from the 140 on up has infinite voltage control while every Hobart clear up to the Ironman 230 has "click stops" - you just get a few MORE clicks with the larger machines, but I know on some of the stuff I do, I can tell a difference in the way it runs with just a couple TENTHS change in voltage.

    Haven't looked inside a Hobart to compare actual parts, mainly because the limitation of 7 choices from minimum to maximum voltage made my choice for me. Bought a 211 about a year and a half ago, sold it to a friend last year and moved up to a mm252 with dual running gear and a 30A spool gun.

    Liked the 211, but wanted more of everything - longer torch, longer spool gun, more power, auto-switch between guns, etc.

    So yeah, Miller and Hobart are the same, except where they're DIFFERENT... if you don't wanna spend a bit extra and don't think you'll notice the lack of fine adjustment, that's your choice- I made mine...Steve

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  • AKweldshop
    replied
    Originally posted by JSFAB View Post
    You're wrong.
    Why is that??

    ITW owns Miller and Hobart....

    There mvp plugs interchange, gun parts interchange, mainly the only thing different is the color.

    Please chime in....

    ~John

    Leave a comment:

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