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W. Va. Mine Accident

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  • #61
    All this BS discussion--Union vs Non-Union, Socialism, Communism, etc, etc. has no place in this thread.

    I admit I'm guilty of promulgating it, along with many others. I no longer will.

    My sincere condolences go out to the families and loved ones of the miners lost in this terrible tragety.
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    • #62
      Originally posted by SundownIII View Post
      All this BS discussion--Union vs Non-Union, Socialism, Communism, etc, etc. has no place in this thread.
      Sure it does; Dave framed the discussion this way. And though I have seen so much unproductive featherbedding nonsense set up by lazy sods in union offices that I quit a good Boeing job in disgust and set up on my own, I agree with Dave that a good union can protect workers more effectively than government regulators. FWIW, my own resentment is not of unions as such, but of the union super-patriots who take the attitude, "Union: Love it or get the f### out!," by which they mean that every union man must always go along with every position the union takes.

      Agreed, that all job-holders owe a debt to the pioneers of the labor movement, "the people who brought you the weekend," and the standard forty-hour week, among many things we now take for granted. I don't quite see that, as Dave seems to, extending to the self-employed; for one thing, all the little business owners I know haven't had the luxury of a 40-hour week, or even weekends, since they set up shop. And most will have to continue until they are carried out feet-first!

      Everybody in the country is saddened by this tragedy. There is nobody, however exalted his station in life and how priviledged his circumstances, that doesn't dimly understand that his own well-being depends directly on simple, daring, very tough men doing this kind of dangerous work. If this disaster is not at the front of everyone's thoughts it is because realistically there is not a thing most of us can do about it.

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      • #63
        I will take full responsibility for the direction this thread headed. I offer my humblest apologies to the Members of this Forum if anyone was offended. I never meant for it to turn into such a firestorm. I will be more depictive in the future, or not comment at all.

        To the families of this tragedy, I extend my sincerest condolences and prayers.

        David E Darragh
        "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

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        • #64
          My personal views, I feel for the survivors of this incident, just like I feel for the survivor of the guy that lost his life on the highway near me, just last night. Just because, 28 other people died, at the same time, doesn't really mean a whole lot, to the immediate survivers, of a particular individual who died in this mine accident. You think about it, does it really matter??? your significant other died??? in a single car accident or with 30 other guys??? He's dead. Your pain is the same. either way. It's no better, no worse, knowing he died with 29 other guys.

          Just in case you frilly sensitive people don't understand, If my brother died, my dad died, I would feel just as bad, no difference, if one of them died with 29 other people, than if they died by themselves. The pain is the same, the only difference is the public's perception of this "tragedy". Same example, airplane pilots die every day, cropdusters, whatever. All of a sudden, a plane with passengers die, it's a "tragedy".

          to the people personally involved, what's the difference, huh?
          Obviously, I'm just a hack-artist, you shouldn't be listening to anything I say .....

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          • #65
            Fine, it's not a tragedy.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
              1.) I'll pay you double for the book, if you autograph it.

              2.) The gall of them wanting their money back.

              3.) I really don't have the time for litigation.

              JS: On a serious note, I do have to commend you for being self-employed. That is a manifestation of the American Enterprising Spirit. Your dedication, perseverance, and willingness to accept the challenges speaks volumes of your moral strength. Moreover, your earnings are based on your reputation with your customer base. I'm sure you are very good at what you do, to have survived in the economic climate and remain profitable.

              By the way, what did you do about your 12VS?
              answering in order .....

              1) My book, I'm still collecting material for. Also includes burning a few potential customers, with money to pay right now, that think think I should drop everything for, to take care of them. A couple famous quotes ..... "I can't afford to work for you,,,, I still gotta eat before you pay me......" "People that want work done right now, should pay right now"

              First quote was from last year, second one was from twenty years ago. Another one,,,,,, "the first time somebody tries telling me how to do a job, safely, is the last time he sees me". I said this to a guy that tried telling me I absolutely had to weld an old fuel tank, his way. I just loaded everything up, drove home. Haven't talked to him since, have no need to talk to him, I kissed $100,000 worth of work per year goodbuy, don't regret it. It's not like I had other work to replace him, I even told my wife, if he calls, I'm busy, you'll just have to wait until I have time. He knows.

              2) I don't blame the workmen's comp administration, whoever they are. Understand, this happened over twenty-five years ago, today, I actually admire them for catching me. At the time, of course, I was halfway thru Cal Poly, pissed me off, great deal, get disability plus a regular paycheck, already spent most of the money. Had to tighten my belt up for the next quarter, live like every other college student at the time. Life goes on, so what????

              3) Neither do I, happy you have the same attitude.

              4) Appreciate it, far too many people have no concept , going out and doing work on your own, and not just side work, ,,,, this is real work, the only work that supports me and fills our needs for the future.

              My 12vs??? not important right now, I thought it was in running shape, sent it up to a buddy in Oregon last year, he never had a chance to actually use it, I tried it a few months ago, that's when I realized I had a problem. The alterative is the LN-25. Which is still working just fine, by the way. Actually, two of them, one with a contactor and one without. I don't panic yet, while business has picked up considerably in the last couple months, I can still afford to keep the old 12vs sitting around, even though useless

              At some point of course, I will ship the useless 12vs feeder up to Sacramento, along with the useless 301 Trailblazer. Hopefully, the people up there can figure out what the problems are.
              Obviously, I'm just a hack-artist, you shouldn't be listening to anything I say .....

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              • #67
                Originally Posted By Seattle Smitty Everybody in the country is saddened by this tragedy. There is nobody, however exalted his station in life and how priviledged his circumstances, that doesn't dimly understand that his own well-being depends directly on simple, daring, very tough men doing this kind of dangerous work. If this disaster is not at the front of everyone's thoughts it is because realistically there is not a thing most of us can do about it.
                I think there are plenty of people who have no clue at all and are so self absorbed that the thought of them being dependent on people who do dangerous jobs never enters their minds at for one second, on the other hand there would be a good chance those same people could probably name every contestant on American Idol.Mike
                Last edited by crawdaddy; 04-13-2010, 11:55 PM.

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                • #68
                  Upper Big Branch brings into question safety of non-union mines
                  April 13, 2010 · In the last five years, fatal accidents at three non-union West Virginia coal mines have resulted in 43 fatalities.

                  These deaths are causing some to question the safety records of mines where workers are not in the miner’s union.

                  In January 2006, an explosion inside the Sago Mine in Upshur County left 12 coal miners dead.

                  A few weeks later, two miners died after a conveyor belt caught fire at the Aracoma Alma Mine in Logan County.

                  And last week, an explosion at the Upper Big Branch Mine in Raleigh County resulted in the nation’s worst mine disaster in almost 40 years.

                  All three mines had one thing in common: the miners who worked there were not members of the miner’s union.

                  Pat McGinley is a law professor at West Virginia University.

                  "I think the obvious evidence in the last few years is that currently it’s more dangerous to work in non-union mines than union mines," he said.

                  "The tragedies at Sago, and the Aracoma mine and the Crandall Canyon mine in Utah are stark examples of this."

                  McGinley says changes need to be made to current mine safety laws, to improve safety and enforcement.

                  “Every violation that puts a miner’s life at risk is serious, even if it only goes on for an hour,” he said. “They should not be tolerated.”

                  Tony Oppegard is a former mine safety prosecutor in Kentucky and represents coal miners and their families in safety litigation. He also says a union mine is a safer mine.

                  “I would say that there is no question in my mind that if this Massey mine had been a union mine, there is no way that they would have racked up 50 unwarrantable failure violations last year,” he said. “The union wouldn’t have tolerated it. They would not have tolerated repeated violations of the ventilation system for instance, because that would be exposing their union brothers to harm.”

                  Oppegard says in non-union mines, anyone who makes safety complaints takes a risk of getting fired. http://www.wvpubcast.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=14376
                  It doesn't matter what kind of condolences you offer or how many times you say your heart goes out to the families if you insist on completely dancing around the reason why these 29 miners are dead. In recent years, over 90% of coal mining deaths have been at non-union mines. This is not a political issue at all, despite the efforts of several to twist it into one (with words like Democrat, Socialism, Communism). This is an issue of fact. A non-union mine is statistically more dangerous. We've lost sight of the real issue by debating established fact. We need to be asking why non-union coal mines are so much more dangerous. The thing that makes this so much more tragic is that these deaths were 100% preventable by measures that, unfortunately, would have affected the bottom line.

                  http://www.wvgazette.com/Obituaries/201004130001

                  http://www.wvgazette.com/Obituaries/201004140001

                  http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebe...ines_are_safer

                  http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/35519.html

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/opinion/14wed2.html

                  80% of failures are from 20% of causes
                  Never compromise your principles today in the name of furthering them in the future.
                  "All I ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work." -Sgt. Bilko
                  "We are generally better persuaded by reasons we discover ourselves than by those given to us by others." -Pascal
                  "Since we cannot know all that there is to be known about anything, we ought to know a little about everything." -Pascal

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by davedarragh View Post
                    I will take full responsibility for the direction this thread headed. I offer my humblest apologies to the Members of this Forum if anyone was offended. I never meant for it to turn into such a firestorm. I will be more depictive in the future, or not comment at all.

                    To the families of this tragedy, I extend my sincerest condolences and prayers.

                    David E Darragh
                    Don't apologize, Dave, stuff like this is what keeps this board from getting boring. Having a good knock-down, drag-out from time to time, a good debate, adds, doesn't subtract. To be honest, after all the blood, guts, and bruises, if you were closer, I'd enjoy having a beer with you
                    Last edited by JSFAB; 04-14-2010, 03:35 PM.
                    Obviously, I'm just a hack-artist, you shouldn't be listening to anything I say .....

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by JSFAB View Post
                      Don't apologize, Dave, stuff like this is what keeps this board from getting boring. Having a good knock-down, drag-out from time to time, a good debate, adds, doesn't subtract. To be honest, after all the blood, guts, and bruises, if you were closer, I'd enjoy having a beer with you
                      Thanks JS. I'll keep that in mind. Same here, if you ever get down this way, look me up.

                      Yeah, being able to agree on dis-agreeing can be a good thing. Kind of cleans the cobwebs out of the ol' noggin.

                      Glad to hear work is picking up for you. I'm noticing more tower cranes in town, so that's a good thing. Nothing like it was 5-10 years ago, but when the cranes go up, that means concrete and steel.
                      "Bonne journe'e mes amis"

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