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Induction from coiled up leads???

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  • #16
    Inductance

    Been a long time but what was all that in science class about winding copper wire around an "iron" core? Are you absolutely positive that there isn't enough difference between a steel reel and an aluminum one to bother changing it? Like I said when I started this thread. A pipe welder with about 30 years was able to get enough root reinforcement but it didn't want to tie in. I just wonder if it was because my leads are wound up on a steel spool versus his on aluminum. I would ask him but I have taken up so much of his time and he never reply's to my e-mails.

    I just found some interesting stuff as it relates to electromagnets that might be relevant. It would seem to me that I\we would want to do all I\we can to make a poor electromagnet. The paragraph below was taken from this link http://education.jlab.org/qa/electromagnet.html

    Hints to Make Your Electromagnet Stronger

    The more turns of wire your magnet has, the better. Keep in mind that the further the wire is from the core, the less effective it will be.

    The more current that passes through the wire, the better. Caution! Too much current can be dangerous! As electricity passes through a wire, some energy is lost as heat. The more current that flows through a wire, the more heat is generated. If you double the current passing through a wire, the heat generated will increase 4 times! If you triple the current passing through a wire, the heat generated will increase 9 times! Things can quickly become too hot to handle.

    Try experimenting with different cores. A thicker core might make a more powerful magnet. Just make certain that the material you choose can be magnetized. You can test your core with a permanent magnet. If a permanent magnet is not attracted to your core, it will not make a good electromagnet. An aluminum bar, for example, is not a good choice for your magnet's core.
    Last edited by acustomfabricatorcom; 02-01-2009, 12:59 AM. Reason: forgot some stuff

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    • #17
      A reel doesn't have a lot of mass relatively speaking. I mean most of the space inside the coil is still air. It does increase it, though. Now if you wrap it around something solid, like steel wheel weights or 6" round bar stock, now you're talking!

      If you think there's a good deal of inductance there, find a Ham radio guy with a MFJ-259 and analyze the inductance. Try it again wrapped around a steel wheel weight.

      The reason I say it's a waste of time is because it won't make enough inductance to affect your welds. It takes bigger, purpose-built inductors for that.
      __________

      I came back to add these links...

      http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/...lculating.html

      http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/

      The first one describes in simple terms how the amount of air vs. the amount of iron inside of a core affects the permeability of the core, and thus the inductance.

      The second one discusses the non-linear nature of permeability and how the core is affected by "saturation." (as in magnetic flux density saturation)

      It's complicated and I felt like I didn't explain well enough why an aluminum reel doesn't "look" much different than a steel reel from the perspective of the magnetic field. I hope this helps a little.
      Last edited by Bodybagger; 02-01-2009, 05:06 PM.

      80% of failures are from 20% of causes
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      • #18
        ac current and maybe pulsing dc will make a magnet with an aluminum core, the cheap relays use this, also the meter on your house has an aluminum wheel not steel that turns and makes the dials turn.
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        • #19
          So why is it then that my pipe welder buddy doesn't like the way the trailblazer runs compared to his Lincoln 300D? Is the Trailblazer going to make my life more difficult burning in the root?

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          • #20
            There is no comparison on a Lincoln 300D to a Miller trailbazer 302. Basically the 300D is a far better machine, only better version would be a Red-D-Arc 3+3.

            Getting back to that magnetic inductance, A reel with a steel core (whether a steel tube or shaft) has the greatest inductance, which if placed wrong can give grief to a circuit board machine. An Aluminum reel with a Aluminum core will give the least, and will act like an air gap,ie, coiled cables lying on the ground.

            Lincoln has put out a video on the effects of magnetic inductance and what your arc looks like using steel wraps , reels and coiled arc cable. I saw it on the last Linc course. Kinda cool.
            Last edited by cruizer; 02-02-2009, 10:56 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by cruizer View Post
              There is no comparison on a Lincoln 300D to a Miller trailbazer 302.
              That's no lie


              Lincoln has put out a video on the effects of magnetic inductance and what your arc looks like using steel wraps , reels and coiled arc cable. I saw it on the last Linc course.

              I would like to see that. Interesting, I'm sure.
              Jeff

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              • #22
                Induction from coiled up leads???

                I was wondering if anyone has heard about creating an inductance coil for a Mig using a steel pipe with welding ground wrapped around it?? Silly question maybe but a question nonetheless.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Precision View Post
                  I was wondering if anyone has heard about creating an inductance coil for a Mig using a steel pipe with welding ground wrapped around it?? Silly question maybe but a question nonetheless.
                  Probably not in the last 4 1/2 years.

                  Griff

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Precision View Post
                    I was wondering if anyone has heard about creating an inductance coil for a Mig using a steel pipe with welding ground wrapped around it?? Silly question maybe but a question nonetheless.
                    i think this is Dan's from the Hobart forum- I never labeled it when I copied it

                    Ed Conley
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                    • #25
                      A blast from the past, 2009 thread reborn.

                      Just my experience, antecdotal at best so take it or leave it.

                      I had reels for several years, they are fast out and fast in and take up minimal space on a crowded bed.

                      But, they get really hot at higher amperages say 160A+ or so all day. That means you have to do more lead maintenance, cut off the black burnt ends (all 4) much more often. My last set of (good) leads cost about 2k, I don't like cutting 4' off each end (4) twice a year to have good clean copper to put new connections on.

                      I gave up the convinience of reels for pronghorn racks with big loose loops and are happy, happy.

                      An old SA-200/250/300 is less concerned with tightly packed leads than say a Vantage or PipePro but they still overheat meaning you have to spool them out loose on the ground for any long term higher amp use. And your high $ leads will die a lot sooner.
                      A Vantage or PipePro arc characteristics will be adversly affected by tightly wound reels in my opinion. The nice adjustments those machines give you can be lost with a set of reels.
                      The Anger Management knob in downhill pipe mode becomes a lot less or even no effect(tive). And that knob is your pinch control using flux core. So I really like the use of it and don't want to make it innefective, it does too much good at the puddle, for me.

                      A lot of people live happily with reels but they were more trouble and $$ than they were worth to me after about 5 years of use. But I run high amperage (to me, 200-400A) for long days and weeks. I want opimal arc characteristics at the sharp end regardless of anything else and I want to squeeze every bit of adjustability/arc tailoring out of my machine. Your situation may be mo different.

                      I know jam up pipeliners (few) with reels on the truck, working solely in a tie in or road bore situation. Get in the salty firing squad and it's a little different. Go outside pipeline tie in world and it can be very different due to the heat run and the hours/day it's run.

                      J
                      Some days you eat the bear. And some days the bear eats you.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Broccoli1 View Post
                        i think this is Dan's from the Hobart forum- I never labeled it when I copied it

                        Pardon my ignorance. What is the purpose of that inductor?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Arizona Joe View Post
                          Pardon my ignorance. What is the purpose of that inductor?
                          I was using it to add some softness to a MIG arc, and improve weld puddle wet out.

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                          • #28
                            Induction from coiled up leads???

                            That's exactly what I was talking about.
                            Danny, does it do what you thought it would?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Precision View Post
                              That's exactly what I was talking about.
                              Danny, does it do what you thought it would?
                              I would not put any impedance on the ground side of any circuit.

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                              • #30
                                This is a picture from the mm 140 mig manual when I started messing with ours at work about four yrs ago the guys said it would just burn back to the tips and mess them up. So I started trying to figure it out finally I looked at this picture and the neg and pos leads were crossed . The neg goes around the case and comes from the top and pos comes in the bottom. When they put it together new they didn't have that neg lead the way it was suppose to be. So I guess it was causing it to magnetize now it works perfect.
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