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Proper sub panel size for Syncrowave 200

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  • Proper sub panel size for Syncrowave 200

    I have a 100 amp service in my house.
    I want to install a sub panel in my 2 car garage.
    All single phase.
    I figured a single phase 60 amp sub panel would be lots,but I read in the Syncrowave 200 manual that a 208-230 volt wants 54 amps at peak power draw.
    They claim you need a 60 amp slow trip breaker or a 80 amp.


    SOOO does this mean I need to make my sub panel 100 amps instaed of 60?
    I would also do the regular wiring in the shop eg.lights,Split recepticals(for the beer fridge)
    any help or good advice is welcome
    Thanks
    Harris welding torch
    Harris Cutting torch propane
    Syncrowave 200
    Mastercraft 4.5 grinder
    20 ton press
    Milwaukee 14" Dry Cut Machine
    Miller Digital Elite (Luckys Speed Shop)
    3/4" Welding Table

  • #2
    60a breaker for the machine....do you have power in the garage yet?
    MM 211 W/ Spoolgun
    Diversion 180
    Spectrum 375 X-TREME
    Portable Victor O/A
    Palmgren Bench Drill Press
    14" Evolution Dry Saw
    IR 60 Gal. 3 HP Compressor
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    • #3
      So I need to buy a 100 amp breaker, 90 feet of 4 gauge wire, a panel,a slow trip 60 amp breaker ,some 8 gauge wire,a 50 amp female welding plug then it is legal?
      Harris welding torch
      Harris Cutting torch propane
      Syncrowave 200
      Mastercraft 4.5 grinder
      20 ton press
      Milwaukee 14" Dry Cut Machine
      Miller Digital Elite (Luckys Speed Shop)
      3/4" Welding Table

      Comment


      • #4
        "Legal" is going to depend on where you live. If you put your location in your profile, we'll always know what area you are in.

        Is this a detached or attached garage? If detached, is there already a circuit of any kind going there?

        Will you be using it at full peak? What else will need to come from the subpanel? Lighting or other receptacles? What other tools might be used at the same time?

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        • #5
          I live in Ontario Canada.
          yes the garage is attached.yes there is one string of 2 lights and a switch that I would likely get rid of and run lights and recepticals from the sub panel if that makes sense to do.
          It would be all the normal shop stuff beer fridge,5 horse air compresser,1 horse bench grinder,4.5 inch grinder,extra lights,Syncrowave 200 welder,mabey more as I could afford it (plasma torch).
          Harris welding torch
          Harris Cutting torch propane
          Syncrowave 200
          Mastercraft 4.5 grinder
          20 ton press
          Milwaukee 14" Dry Cut Machine
          Miller Digital Elite (Luckys Speed Shop)
          3/4" Welding Table

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SGS Welding View Post
            I live in Ontario Canada.
            yes the garage is attached.yes there is one string of 2 lights and a switch that I would likely get rid of and run lights and recepticals from the sub panel if that makes sense to do.
            It would be all the normal shop stuff beer fridge,5 horse air compresser,1 horse bench grinder,4.5 inch grinder,extra lights,Syncrowave 200 welder,mabey more as I could afford it (plasma torch).
            I guess the walls are not finished out??
            I would do a sub box of at least 100 amps or more if possible, and the rest of the electric system makes this feasible...you got a bunch of stuff and yanking plugs all the time can get old.

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            • #7
              What're the electrical loads in the rest of the house? Is an upgrade to a 200A service feasible?

              Sounds like a one man shop though, no heavy tools operating at the same time as others. You can probably survive with the current plan.

              I wouldn't bother relocating the existing circuits to the subpanel unless you need to. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Just use the sub for the new ones.

              Comment


              • #8
                Beware!

                The common mistake people make when they install subpanels themselves is this:

                they feed them with 3 wire cable and use the neutral as the ground in the subpanel. Don't do this!

                You'll need to run 4 wire cable (Line1,Line2,Neutral,Ground) and isolate the ground from the neutral in your subpanel. You'll be tying all your white wires to the neutral bus bar and all your grounds to the isolated ground bus bar.

                Also, there's no need to get carried away on the branch circuit feeding this welder. It has a 40% duty cycle at its rated input of 54A. Refer to this post

                Originally posted by Bodybagger View Post
                That sounds like the way to do it.

                As far as the smaller wire than expected, refer to the following:

                2005 National Electric Code

                Article 630.11, 630.11(A), 630.11(B)

                Basically says that even though the welder is rated at 54A input, you don't need 54A capacity wire (ie 6 or 4), because the duty cycle of the welder is less than 100%

                At full capacity 54A input, the rated duty cycle is 40%. Using the table in NEC, the minimum current carying capacity of the wires feeding this welder are 63% of the rated current, or .63*54A=34A. The smallest usable wire would be 8 gauge with a capacity of 40A (which is exactly what it has on the cord). So, you could run #8 copper to a 50A welder receptacle for this welder with no worries because NEC specifically allows it. Also, you could even feed this from an 80A breaker to eliminate nuissance trips, since NEC allows the use of a breaker up to 200% of the conductor capacity PROVIDED it's used on a welder.

                But if money is no object, it never hurts to go bigger. But stick with a 3 prong NEMA type 6-50 Receptacle.
                6g copper would work running to your subpanel, and 8-2/wg would be OK to run your Syncrowave 200, but here is the catch...

                You can use an 80 amp breaker on the branch circuit for the welder, but you're stuck with a 60A main breaker feeding the box unless you step up to a 100A box. So if you're welding full bore on thick aluminum, even a couple halogen lights going might result in nuisance trips of the subpanel's main breaker.

                Do yourself a favor and put in a 100A subpanel fed from 4g copper so you ugrade once. Then feed your welder with 8-2/wg through a 60A breaker. Keep in mind, it's not unheard of to get a separate metered service to the garage!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bodybagger View Post
                  it's not unheard of to get a separate metered service to the garage!
                  There ya go, 200 Amps in the Garage.

                  POWER!!!!!!!
                  MM 211 W/ Spoolgun
                  Diversion 180
                  Spectrum 375 X-TREME
                  Portable Victor O/A
                  Palmgren Bench Drill Press
                  14" Evolution Dry Saw
                  IR 60 Gal. 3 HP Compressor
                  Speedglas 9100x
                  My Brain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have done that, put the new service in the garage where the motor loads are and feed the old house panel.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I did one a while back, the owners first inclination was to replace the house panel, I relocated a new 200 main on to the end of the house and more favorable to the rest of the utilities, put it in the basement with wood shop tools and water heater, run the stove over to it and turn the old entrance into a sub for general circuits. Switch the well over to it even. Used a 50 to feed the old panel.
                      Remember, use 100A panels anyway, cheaper than anything else as they are so common on box store shelves. No reason to go looking around for a 60 when a 6 space main lug is 25$ or so. This can all run on 100A service especially if the home appliances are gas. This is a poster case for a Dynasty, wiring costs and service upgrades are high, makes up for some difference in purchase price in many cases.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks for the help everyone I think I will follow the advice of making the sub a 100amp with the 4wire 4 gauge stuff thanks a lot everybody!
                        Harris welding torch
                        Harris Cutting torch propane
                        Syncrowave 200
                        Mastercraft 4.5 grinder
                        20 ton press
                        Milwaukee 14" Dry Cut Machine
                        Miller Digital Elite (Luckys Speed Shop)
                        3/4" Welding Table

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          SGC
                          Before you buy the breakers for that panel, you might want to call Miller and talk to them. I had been considering the Syncro 200 myself. Then carefully reading the specs I 'discovered' that 54 amps is at the RATED output- NOT the MAX output of 200 amps. The 'rated' amps are only 150 amps to draw that 54 amps, if you push it near or to the max you need significantly more as in 70+ amps as per Miller.
                          Download the Syncro 200 manual and scroll to section 2-15 for 'normal' operating they call for an 80 amp fuse or a slow blow one of 60. As I said above they (Miller) told me that it draws upwards of 71-77 amps. While I have that much available in my garage, the inverter machines that draw significantly less are becoming more appealing to me, less $$$ going out to the electric company.
                          Hope this might help.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 131RE View Post
                            ...Download the Syncro 200 manual and scroll to section 2-15 for 'normal' operating they call for an 80 amp fuse or a slow blow one of 60....
                            He already acknowledged that in the initial post. The circuit breaker will almost certainly be a time-delay, slow-blow equivalent.

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                            • #15
                              Modern breakers are slo-blo. Probably going to have to pipe this service, there are several wire options, mine it would be 2 alum quad assembly and leave enough wire so if a service upgrade was in the future the main could become a sub if the entrance was relocated? This is a place its worth a little effort to plan the next move way in advance. Both existing panels could be re-fed from a new service. In the garage now it would be 6 or 8 spaces now with a couple for 120V for my heavy power tools to keep it off of existing circuits. Toss a 60 or 70 in for the welder and a couple spaces left for new welding or cutting equipment much of which requires 50A or less.
                              Last edited by Sberry; 10-03-2008, 10:16 AM.

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