Lesson Learned

[Fat-Fab.com]

I was called out to weld for an existing customer of 3+ years. As is the norm with this customer every thing is needed NOW. So I welded as per the instructions from the job site foreman, not having looked at any drawings or weld call-outs.

The job: a remodel of commercial (retail) space so going in I know that I will be inspected by special inspections. Beam hangers for 5.125” GLB welded to a 4” pipe column with no access to make a vertical weld at the edges. So they had me cut holes in the face for a “plug weld”
The ¾” x1” slot I flame cut left a gap at the apex of the cut to the receding radius of the pipe. AWS says that a plug weld needs to have the parent metals within 1/16” to each other.

So the inspector called me saying that I busted the test, that the weld I made is not a plug weld. I knew that when I made the weld I say, but that was the condition I was given and I did no fit up I just cut the hole and welded as directed.

Now I am hoping the engineer will buy off on the weld I did make or I think I will be going back on my time to fix some thing that I knew from the beginning that was suspect.

I let the exuberance and frustrations of the customer guide me instead of using my instincts.


Lesson Learned: Never proceed with out the correct paper work in hand. Don’t weld until all drawings have been reviewed. If instruct by customer to “just weld it we’ll figure out the paper work later” get the customer to sign off on accepting all responsibility’s.


TJ

[Coalsmoke]

I have a waiver drawn up for injury, damage, financial loss, etc that I have the customer sign first when I get to those types of jobs where the customer is too cheap to have it drawn up properly by an engineer. Then its real simple, I tell them its your money, how would you like to spend it:cool: In other words, I'll do it however you want it done, and at the end of the day I don't lose any sleep over it.

[Fat-Fab.com]

I have a waiver drawn up for injury, damage, financial loss, etc that I have the customer sign first when I get to those types of jobs where the customer is too cheap to have it drawn up properly by an engineer. Then its real simple, I tell them its your money, how would you like to spend it:cool: In other words, I'll do it however you want it done, and at the end of the day I don't lose any sleep over it.

Would you be willing to share that document with the group?

TJ

[Coalsmoke]

Would you be willing to share that document with the group?

TJ

Sorry, I wouldn't, just because of the time / money invested in it on my part, and also it is done with respect to standards and codes here in BC / Canada. It specifically is a 2 page document that is called a "RELEASE OF LIABILITY, WAIVER OF CLAIMS, ASSUMPTIONS OF RISKS AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT"

[calweld]

If I showed up with some kind of waiver release, and tried to get somebody to sign it, I'd just be laughed off the job, and probably never be called back again. Around here, you either take the risk, or walk away from the job.

[calweld]

If you, as the business owner and operator, aren't willing to take the risk and stand by your work, the customer might as well go buy his own equipment and have one of his employees do the welding . . .

[dyn88]

I think you are missing the point that, yhe contractor didnt want to pay an engineer to follow local ordinance(my spelling sucks) and please the inspector.

[calweld]

I think you are missing the point that, yhe contractor didnt want to pay an engineer to follow local ordinance(my spelling sucks) and please the inspector.

If I can't do a job I'm willing to stand by or feel comfortable with (whether by code or by safety/liability issues), I just walk away from it, unless it's a risk I'm willing to accept. In the end, that is more complete protection than any written waiver of liability, which in a lot of cases isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I will mention that my own personal "risk threshold" is pretty high . . . quite a few things I've done came to me because nobody else would do them, I don't even mention them on this board until the statute of limitations expires:eek: :eek: ;) ;)

[Coalsmoke]

I think you are missing the point that, yhe contractor didnt want to pay an engineer to follow local ordinance(my spelling sucks) and please the inspector.

Exactly! Calweld here might be fine and happy with his welds, but what if he misses the snowload factor, or windage, or doesn't realize that these members are bottom-story load bearing because the foreman just says of they're only decoration, we don't really need them, just do one quick pass, so that's what he does becuase Cal was fed the wrong information, not his fault but the weld fails and guess who holds the stick, Calweld Welding, next thing you know Calweld is living on mexican beans.:rolleyes:

I'm not saying a waiver is for everyone, but I have found that those who are not doing things by the books would rather sign a waiver then pay an engineer. Those that get things designed and have proper plans, I have no problems with and no need for any sort of waiver because as long as I do my part, the design liability is on the engineer.

[dyn88]

point well taken

[rydog1881]

i flat out rufuse jobs when the customer wants to short cut things or do them half assed.. i work on boats and especially when i am doing work below the waterline i take no chances. failure in the work can result in death for some one and i am not willing to live with that on my conscience..

[KB Fabrications]

If I can't do a job I'm willing to stand by or feel comfortable with (whether by code or by safety/liability issues), I just walk away from it, unless it's a risk I'm willing to accept.;)
Sometimes, walking away is THE best option. I recently was given a job through my helo client. All the parts had been machined according to the print and were waiting on a table when I got there. I started doing a mock up on the assembly table and could tell instantly that it wasn't gonna work. I said as much to the owner and that I wouldn't touch it until some design changes were made. He had to call his client but in the end, a print change was ordered, I completed the job, and went on my merry way. The part also had to be dye penetrant and load tested before delivery. I knew just by looking at it that it would have failed load testing.:eek: Evidently, this other client has had design issues with this engineer before.:rolleyes:

I will mention that my own personal "risk threshold" is pretty high . . . quite a few things I've done came to me because nobody else would do them, I don't even mention them on this board until the statute of limitations expires:eek: :eek: ;) ;)
I get a lot of those kinds of jobs too, even through my helo client. In the end you just have to use a little common sense which for some reason seems to be lacking these days.:)

[calweld]

Exactly! Calweld here might be fine and happy with his welds, . . . the design liability is on the engineer.

Hahaha Coal thinks I live in this never-never land of fruits and nuts, not a care in the world :p Well, as far as risk and liability, I doubt there's a higher level anywhere in N. America than right here in sunny California, due to our wonderful legislature, even more wonderful courts, and the very very wonderful fruits and nuts in the legal profession and the general public :rolleyes: I have never set foot in an Indian casino (they are all around me), I go to Reno regularly (family), walk right by the slots and card tables going out for dinner, never drop a dime. Being a California Contractor is enough of a gamble.

Engineer??? The vast majority of the work I do I'm the designer, engineer, and operator all in one. I've got a set of plans on my desk right now, a plant upgrade, has engineer stamp, but for the process only . . . just tells you the order things go in, the physical assembly and installation?? Structural members?? How to connect everything?? Conveyors, ducts, etc.? Gas lines, air lines, electric?? Welds, steel, bolts and nuts . . . it's all on my head, the buck stops right here. Think anybody's going to sign a two-page release of liability before I start????:rolleyes: hahahaha

Cal was fed the wrong information, not his fault

It's my business to sort through all the information and data, if I can't I might as well get a job working for somebody else.

next thing you know Calweld is living on mexican beans.

Been there, done that. Not to offend anybody from any particular ethnic group, but you guys gotta wait until you see my new recipe book "How to Eat Like a Gourmet on $2.00 a Day!!!!"

Btw, I love Mexican beans . . . just don't stand downwind :o


point well taken

You are referring to?????

I don't even mention them on this board until the statute of limitations expires:eek: :eek: ;) ;)

That wasn't a joke . . .

[weld-tek]

[QUOTE=Fat-Fab.com;82922]I was called out to weld for an existing customer of 3+ years. As is the norm with this customer every thing is needed NOW. So I welded as per the instructions from the job site foreman, not having looked at any drawings or weld call-outs.

I did no fit up I just cut the hole and welded as directed.





people like this is why the rest of us liability insurance is so dang high.

[Coalsmoke]

Hahaha Coal thinks I live in this never-never land of fruits and nuts, not a care in the world :p

Beautiful sunny day in California.:D I'll agree, you guys seem lawsuit happy down there:eek: I'm not that big of a risk taker as Cal, hence why I take the extra step to cover my butt. And honestly, I have only used the waiver a couple times so far, and none of those jobs struck me as evident failures, their were just load bearing type members or components that had no prints for and I didn't want to hold the poker chips (not big enough kahunas I guess:o :D ) Interestingly enough, when the waiver is used, I've never heard an objection to it yet. I just explain that because its not a certified design my insurance providers need the waiver, makes it sound all official like;) Maybe its because most people are pretty easy going out here. I don't think people get as ruffled up as they do in some higher strung places like Ontario.:cool: