350P or 350MP

[philsbs]

Hi, I have a small autobody & fabrication shop. Lately I've been getting more heavy jobs the old mig just can't handle.

I'm looking for a welder that can handle thin sheet metal and 3/8+ steel and eventually alluminum. I was pretty set on the 350p, but after researching the 350mp appears to be more versatile (multifuncion & upgradable). Does anyone know the strong and weak points of these models?

Thank you, Phil

[KB Fabrications]

Hi, I have a small autobody & fabrication shop. Lately I've been getting more heavy jobs the old mig just can't handle.

I'm looking for a welder that can handle thin sheet metal and 3/8+ steel and eventually alluminum. I was pretty set on the 350p, but after researching the 350mp appears to be more versatile (multifuncion & upgradable). Does anyone know the strong and weak points of these models?

Thank you, Phil
If you have done your research, then you know that as far as tig welding goes the Lincoln 350MP will be a DC only machine with no high frequency. That will mean scratch starting and you will be limited to welding on steel. I guess you could try tigging aluminum on that machine but I wouldn't want to.

How thin of material are you looking to weld? I have welded 19 gauge aluminum with my 350P in pulsed-spray mode no problem. That was also using 3/64" wire. I can assume that the Lincoln would perform similarly. As far as the mutlifunction of the 350MP, I would find it impractical to have a machine like that in my shop and have to be switching processes back and forth. In my limited experience, I have found that multi-process machines while good in theory don't perform as well as I would have liked on a given process. I prefer to have dedicated machines to perform specific tasks but that is just me. I suspect you might find a fella or two that would give the thumbs up to the Lincoln but hey, this is a Miller site.

As far as upgrades go, Lincoln and Miller have chosen to do that differently. I happen to have the latest version of the 350P and suspect that based on my relationship with the local Miller rep and my LWS that any upgrades to my machine would be taken care of. Lincoln does it a little differently by allowing software downloads but I would prefer to have a service tech do my work so I know it is done right and would have some kind of warranty behind it. Again, that is just my preference.

I can tell you that the 350P is an awesome unit on steel and aluminum. The pulsed spray transfer process is slick and once you get comfortable with it, you won't want to GMAW any other way. Good luck. :)

[metal-doctor]

Welcome back KB. Missed your input.

[Leons2003]

That goes for me to Kevin, BTW your right I love that Q-gun on the 350P, and the machine is outstanding, however I have yet to spray.
Thanks
LS*

[Scott V]

I had the 300 powermig and it's a excellent welder with .023 wire. You also
have a slope setting for co2 gas. The tig is lift-arc and not scratch start,
but it not as smooth as a inverter. My Esab 260 has a way better DC tig arc
and you would be hard pressed to tell any difference between a inverter. The tig arc will still get the job done fine on the MP-350 but you get quite a bit of ripple or humming from it. I will say the 300/350 has nice working lift-arc and also a pipe welding circuit built in. That's for using the torch without a foot pedal.

I happen to like multi-process machine if setup correctly. Not for a main tig
unit but it still has a bunch of duty-cycle for a 300 + amp tig machine.

I really like the easy software upgrades of the Lincoln or some way to modifiy
the waveforms like the new Thermal machines. The board change for upgrades is pretty old school and one area the Lincoln is ahead.


You are not going to go wrong with either a Miller or Lincoln in that class of
machine, and I almost would have to flip a coin to which one to buy. I do think the Miller control panel has a better more up to date setup. You do
get a Synergic mig short-arc with the Lincoln machine, which is nice.


I would still have to run small wire in the MM-350P before I bought it for
body work. You will still need a small gun with the Lincoln machine but there
are ton's of Tweco 2/4 back-ends that fit the Lincoln.

[KB Fabrications]

You do
get a Synergic mig short-arc with the Lincoln machine, which is nice.
More explanation of why that particular feature would be beneficial,............... please. The reason I ask is that on short-circuit, I prefer to set my own parameters.

I really like the easy software upgrades of the Lincoln or some way to modifiy
the waveforms like the new Thermal machines. The board change for upgrades is pretty old school and one area the Lincoln is ahead.
I would be curious to learn if you have done one of the Lincoln upgrades. Tell us how it is done and what you had to do to get it into the machine. I ask only because I would not have the time to devote to making that happen which is why my preference is to let the machine techs do it. Maybe putting in a new board is old school but lets say something happened while you were downloading Lincolns program and your machine wouldn't boot. What would you do then? At least if a service tech did it you wouldn't get it back before everything was ready to go. I don't know, maybe running a business makes me think a little differently.

As far as the semantics of scratch-start vs lift arc goes, Lift-arc is a Miller term. I don't know what Lincoln calls it but I do know that If I had to do work, and try to make money, with lift-arc I would be pulling my hair out.

[Scott V]

Think of it like adjusting your pulse mig setup. (fast) You can use trim to dial the arc in. There are standard settings for mig and a #40 mode for some interesting
poor mans STT type of arc.

[shadetreewelder]

I had an opportunity to run both machines side by side on a production job that I run 3000 peices a month on.

Here's most of the discussion on it.

http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8257

The PM 350MP is a transformer based multiprocess power source. I ran it on the standard CV mode this is basically a MM 251 type machine and you get exactly that, predictable and nothing special. Then you can run it in Lincoln's "Synergic" mode that is a nice improvement. The tig is lift start, but IMO the machine sucks as a DC tig power source, not smooth at all seemed like a very noisey signal, I would not view the "Multiprocess" as a benefit. I didn't stick weld with it.

Now the MM 350P is an inverter based machine, so with that said, your standard MIG setting on the MM 350P is the same and IMO slight better than the Synergic Mig mode on the 350MP. Also the MM is a much easier machine to adjust and to get around in the menus. The toggle switches on the Linc. are tedious at best and you have to go back to the "Home" state for the changes you make to take effect. Also the gun on demand is very conveinent with the MM. So if you are planning on adding a spoolgun that is a very nice feature with the Miller.

Now I told the Lincoln sales rep the Red box had to out produce the Blue box to pay for itself in one blanket order or 30,000 parts (10 months of welding) he agreed, will it couldn't even match the blue machine. Although it did do much better than I thought a transformer could.

If you have a lot of red accessories such as MIG guns, spool gun(s), foot pedals etc. It would be a good Idea to stick to red here, the cost of duplicating many of those extras would not be wise. However, if that is not the case or if you have many blues extras stay blue.

[philsbs]

Thanks to all who replied. Some very good information. I will probably go with the 350P and add a spool gun later.

Thanks again, Phil

[ShieldArc]

[QUOTE=KB Fabrications;82732]

I would be curious to learn if you have done one of the Lincoln upgrades. Tell us how it is done and what you had to do to get it into the machine. I ask only because I would not have the time to devote to making that happen which is why my preference is to let the machine techs do it. Maybe putting in a new board is old school but lets say something happened while you were downloading Lincolns program and your machine wouldn't boot. What would you do then? At least if a service tech did it you wouldn't get it back before everything was ready to go. I don't know, maybe running a business makes me think a little differently.

QUOTE]

I just went to the Lincoln and down loaded the update on my laptop for FREE. Then i went to Radio Shack and got a cable that connects my laptop to my PowerMig300. Part# RS-232C. It cost about $14. I connected the laptop to the welder, then i opened the file and followed the instructions. So easy a cave man can do it. :D
Total cost, $14. :)

[KB Fabrications]

I just went to the Lincoln and down loaded the update on my laptop for FREE. Then i went to Radio Shack and got a cable that connects my laptop to my PowerMig300. Part# RS-232C. It cost about $14. I connected the laptop to the welder, then i opened the file and followed the instructions. So easy a cave man can do it. :D
Total cost, $14. :)
Hey that's great, it worked. The question I asked was what if it didn't and the machine wouldn't boot? Then what would you do? I would still prefer to let the local Miller trained tech come to my shop and install the upgrade. Glad it worked out for you though, especially having the time to do it yourself. FWIW, I own 3 red machines.

[ShieldArc]

Hey that's great, it worked. The question I asked was what if it didn't and the machine wouldn't boot? Then what would you do? I would still prefer to let the local Miller trained tech come to my shop and install the upgrade. Glad it worked out for you though, especially having the time to do it yourself. FWIW, I own 3 red machines.

If it didnt take the first time i would just install again. It only takes 5min. I try to do everything myself. Also im a tight wad, hehehehe
Today for the first time i stick welded with my PowerMig300. I expected it to have a medicore arc, but i was actually very impressed!
I will try TIG welding with it soon as someone here said it was a crappy TIG machine. hehehe

[Scott V]

The tig arc is just like Ron said it was. A good working lift-arc is not like scratch start at all.

As far as downloading to my 300, I didn't own it when they offered a upgrade.
I also know when there is a problem with the Miller 251/350 machines you need to re-boot them too. I will get more info from the Airgas tech on the MM-350p they are working on now. It was took out by hi-freq from a tig welder. I heard
none of the machines are very hardened on the front ends. It is something that could happen in boat building pretty easy. I would be interested in how Lincoln
protected their machines or if they do at all???

ShieldArc,
did you notice any improvement in the programming?? I heard they changed some of the Aluminum ones.

[ShieldArc]

ShieldArc,
did you notice any improvement in the programming?? I heard they changed some of the Aluminum ones.
I didnt notice anything, that machine welded perfect before and after the programing. When i bought that machine i planned on using it for everything, but after using it on a big alum job using pulse on pulse, i was sooo impresses i went out and bought a PowerMig 255c. Now that machine impressed me equally as well on mild steel. Just the right amount hot start to eliminate the cold starts normally associated with mig. Also both machines have heavy transformers, NOT inverters... I dont like inverters for mig, they dont have the punch at the start of a weld like a transformer or the reliability. Compare an XMT to a CP302, the XMT will get kicked to the curb! :rolleyes:
Inverters have their place, i have a Maxstar 150, i love that little machine for remote places. :)

[KB Fabrications]

......... NOT inverters... I dont like inverters for mig, they dont have the punch at the start if a weld like a transformer or the reliability. Compare an XMT to a CP302, the XMT will get kicked to the curb! :rolleyes: Inverters have their place, i have a Maxstar 150, i love that little machine for remote places. :)
Hmmmmm. That is an interesting observation to make. Have you ran an MM350P? I guess I need to toss mine to the curb. :eek: :rolleyes: Oh, wait a minute, it did do nicely a couple of weeks ago on the job in the pics. All material is either 3/8" or 1/2 inch plate. Oh, wait one more minute, I don't recall having one cold start with my POS inverter.:D :rolleyes:

EDIT: I almost forgot, I should prolly get rid of the Passport now that I know inverter migs suck. :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[Scott V]

Overall I myself favor the MM-350P in the steel short-arc mode over the PM-300
It's more of a personal thing then anything else. I think both of them match up
very well. :cool:

[ShieldArc]

Hmmmmm. That is an interesting observation to make. Have you ran an MM350P? I guess I need to toss mine to the curb. :eek: :rolleyes: Oh, wait a minute, it did do nicely a couple of weeks ago on the job in the pics. All material is either 3/8" or 1/2 inch plate. Oh, wait one more minute, I don't recall having one cold start with my POS inverter.:D :rolleyes:

EDIT: I almost forgot, I should prolly get rid of the Passport now that I know inverter migs suck. :eek: :D :rolleyes:

Im still wondering why miller didnt name it MM300P. :confused: Ive never ran one but im sure it works well for you. Inverters spray excellent! Its short arcing i was refering to. And my thinking is from a couple yrs ago. :D

[KB Fabrications]

Im still wondering why miller didnt name it MM300P. :confused: Ive never ran one but im sure it works well for you. Inverters spray excellent! Its short arcing i was refering to. And my thinking is from a couple yrs ago. :D
My guess is that since it is a 400 amp machine, they did everyone a favor by advertising it as a 350 class unit. Furthermore, at 300 amps and 60% duty cycle it has the capacity to perform in a high demand industrial setting. I know the job I just posted put the unit through it's paces on pulsed-sray and it never once hiccupped. I originally considered the Lincoln counterpart but did not have a need for a multi-process unit.

While the pulsed-spray is fantastic, it is also a wonderful short-arc unit as well. I can't believe you would say otherwise if you have not run one. I owned a PM 255 that I sold to get the MM350. The PM was awesome and I miss having that machine around but I would not trade the MM350P for it. In fact, the 350P's short arc mode is much nicer than the PM 255 IMO due to the inductance being adjustable.

I own three Lincoln machines and would not part with any of them. HeII, I just sold my 200DX and kept my little V160-T.;) The MM350P does fit me better for a number of reasons (an inverter being one of them) and I would be hard pressed to follow your logic in terms of inverter based mig machines.

[ShieldArc]

My guess is that since it is a 400 amp machine, they did everyone a favor by advertising it as a 350 class unit. Furthermore, at 300 amps and 60% duty cycle it has the capacity to perform in a high demand industrial setting. I know the job I just posted put the unit through it's paces on pulsed-sray and it never once hiccupped. I originally considered the Lincoln counterpart but did not have a need for a multi-process unit.

While the pulsed-spray is fantastic, it is also a wonderful short-arc unit as well. I can't believe you would say otherwise if you have not run one. I owned a PM 255 that I sold to get the MM350. The PM was awesome and I miss having that machine around but I would not trade the MM350P for it. In fact, the 350P's short arc mode is much nicer than the PM 255 IMO due to the inductance being adjustable.

I own three Lincoln machines and would not part with any of them. HeII, I just sold my 200DX and kept my little V160-T.;) The MM350P does fit me better for a number of reasons (an inverter being one of them) and I would be hard pressed to follow your logic in terms of inverter based mig machines.
My PowerMig300 puts out 300amps at 60% too, i just didnt like miller calling their comparable machine a 350 when it finally came out, and therefore Lincoln had to change their name to 350 so customers wouldnt be mislead. Time will tell if its a reliable industrial machine. ;)

The inverters i ran before didnt short arc like the transformer machines ive run in the past. A friend of mine works at Kawasaki here, they have over 50 304XMT's and numerous CP300's and he says the inverters sputter at the starts and the CP300's weld excellent. Guess which machine the weldors want to use when they test? :) Also he said the XMT's like to start on fire every so often. :eek: :D

Do you know how your V160 compares to the maxstar150 in the real world and not on paper? :)

[KB Fabrications]

Do you know how your V160 compares to the maxstar150 in the real world and not on paper? :)
I do, that's why I bought it after testing them both.

[ShieldArc]

I do, that's why I bought it after testing them both.

shhhh, dont say that to loud here. If anyones going to get kicked outa here, let it be me. ;)
So how does the stick mode compare?

[Coalsmoke]

My PowerMig300 puts out 300amps at 60% too, i just didnt like miller calling their comparable machine a 350 when it finally came out, and therefore Lincoln had to change their name to 350 so customers wouldnt be mislead. Time will tell if its a reliable industrial machine. ;)

The inverters i ran before didnt short arc like the transformer machines ive run in the past. A friend of mine works at Kawasaki here, they have over 50 304XMT's and numerous CP300's and he says the inverters sputter at the starts and the CP300's weld excellent. Guess which machine the weldors want to use when they test? :) Also he said the XMT's like to start on fire every so often. :eek: :D

Do you know how your V160 compares to the maxstar150 in the real world and not on paper? :)

Funny, last week I saw a 350xmt cc/cv that toasted straight out of the box. It was a very nice machine for about 13 seconds, then puff the smoke was let out. The other 40 machiens in the room seemed to still be holding their smoke in though:cool:

[lramberson]

shhhh, dont say that to loud here. If anyones going to get kicked outa here, let it be me. ;)
So how does the stick mode compare?

Why? You can say it as loud as you want just have the Nads to back it up.:rolleyes:

I went threw this delima myself and have never been color blind, so let me talk the talk.
Three inverters in my shop and yes my favorite is the SMALL, LIGHT, PORTABLE, Passport. I have yet to ever experience a "cold start" with this machine. Possibly operator setup and experience with the little unit. IT has its place.

My PowerMig300 puts out 300amps at 60% too, i just didn't like miller calling their comparable machine a 350 when it finally came out, and therefore Lincoln had to change their name to 350 so customers wouldn't be mislead. Time will tell if its a reliable industrial machine.

Where is the badging of the Miller unit misleading? I am the person responsible to check the facts and I surely read the specs before dropping my money. Case in point Red Verse Blue in the Tig Line of small inverters.
DX 200 or V205, that 205 makes all the difference in the world and misleads me to think it is better. I don't buy the argument of misleading, more like standard Marketing. Reliability, time will tell that story to both of us.

I think a issue that should be discussed is the main reason for my final decision, and that was availability. During my purchase decision I contacted Lincoln and went through a whole line of MARKETING BS and was ready to go. Tested a 300, was impressed and had bucks in hand, no machines available for minimum of 6 weeks maybe. What is up with that?
I am glad by default I went with the 350P, It is a GREAT aluminum machine, and that is it's life diet.
I still will buy what is the best available with support and don't give a nickle what color it is.

If anyones going to get kicked outa here, let it be me.

You been around here long enough, you can't get kicked out....;)

[KB Fabrications]

So how does the stick mode compare?Well, that would be the $64,000 question for me. My little red guy lives a charmed life of tig-only, usually stainless.:cool: I even keep him covered up when not in use.:eek: There is a guy over on SFT, tonycamco, that has V160-T as well and he has only run his in the stick mode. He said it's awesome. I don't do much stick welding at all.:o