migging 5356 vs 4043 ??????

[tigman250]

was mig welding a roll off bed of a tow truck today at work, my boss said to weld it with 5356 because it holds together better:rolleyes: . i have mig welded alot of aluminum but always used 4043 the fact that he wanted me to use 5356 didn't matter to me just had to change the spool, right......wrong i couldn't get a decent looking weld to save my behind! i always tried to spray the 4043 in the past because of the spatter free welds. for some reason you can't spray the 5356 at all, all the welds were very black and most of them looked and acted like the sheilding gas was off (wich it wasen't;) ) switch back to 4043 and it welds great.....what gives, what am i missing here??? it seemed to weld the best in a short circuit transfer wich created alot of spatter. (and still didn't look that great)

all of the material was cleaned with a SS grinder mounted wire brush, argon any where from 20 cfm all the way to 50 cfm trying to get it to weld decent, .035 wire, Linclon SP 200 w/spool gun. don't recall amps was trying a number of settings to help it out with very little luck. my question is why is 5356 such a diffrent animal than the 4043? the 4043 welds beautifully! is it a base material problem where the base dosen't get along with the filler? if i can't figure it out by Mon i will change it back to 4043 because i am sure the welds i was putting down today aren't very good:o

any help on this subject is greatly appreciated!!

[imported_brisland]

Huge misconception about SS wire wheels mounted to grinders...you are simply smearing the oxidation around in a circle and pushing it further into the base metal...making more of a mess of the situation than helping...use a hand SS wire brush or if you need to dig out a bad weld...use a carbide bit on a die grinder or a wood router...yes a wood router...

Secondly consider the base metal..it may be 'utility' grade or 3000 series...

Thirdly you may have an oxidized roll of wire...especially if it has been sitting around for a long period of time with moisture around...

-B-

[Paul Seaman]

I prefer the roloc discs, and a bath with acitone before welding. This is the best I've used and I have used the SS wheels without problems but the acitone wipe is the best for getting oxide dust totally out of the weld area.

Peace,

[HAWK]

Huge misconception about SS wire wheels mounted to grinders...you are simply smearing the oxidation around in a circle and pushing it further into the base metal...making more of a mess of the situation than helping...use a hand SS wire brush or if you need to dig out a bad weld...use a carbide bit on a die grinder or a wood router...yes a wood router...

Secondly consider the base metal..it may be 'utility' grade or 3000 series...

Thirdly you may have an oxidized roll of wire...especially if it has been sitting around for a long period of time with moisture around...

-B-

Excellent point about powered SS brushes from grinders. A lot of times this just makes the job that much worse. Miller is now stating the same thing in their MIG AL tips article on the Millerwelds.com site.

[tigman250]

could very well be an oxidised roll of 5356,(it was just laying on top of the welder for god knows how long) i'll try a new one in the morning thanks. i'll keep you posted.....

[wb5jhy]

tigman

Just tried aluminum mig for the first time last night. I got a used spoolmate 3035 off Ebay and it came in Friday evening.
It had a fairly full spool of 5053 in it already so I gave it a try. After hooking up everything, I cranked the wire feed down and purged gas for at least 10 seconds set at 25cfh.
I went with chart settings (although chart was for 4043) for 1/8" thick (6061 flat bar).
The bead ran ok but I too had black all over the bead area. In fact I had so much spatter I thought I'd discovered a new process to make textured aluminum sheet.:eek: :D The bead looked decent when wire brushed but man, the spatter was the worst I'd seen on anything. I bumped the wire feed up and then up some more and got a handle on the spatter at a wire setting about 15% over chart value. The grey/black soot was still there though.
Just checked the board this morning and saw this post and I'll be watching to see what developes. I know the spool that came with the gun could well be old but it still looks very shiny and clean. As soon as I finish reading the new posts on my favorite forums I'll change out to a brand new spool of 4043 and see if it runs different here too.
I'll report back.

Tom

[Sundown]

Due to the higher magnesium content in 5356 the meltoff rate is faster and it will generally require more wire speed. While 4043 is mostly good for general projects, 5356 is more rigid and has higher strength properites. As for black soot, I havn't been able to eliminate all of it yet but having new wire, and cleaning with acetone and SS hand brush goes a long way. I pitched out the grinder mounted SS brush because the ends of the wire bent away from the direction of travel and I thought it might be making things worse. Even though I don't mig much aluminum since I bought the T/A I will be interested in seeing how this plays out for future reference.

[tigman250]

has anyone ever been able to get 5356 into a spray transfer mode?

[wb5jhy]

Changed to a new roll of 4043 but still had the grey/black soot problem. Spatter is pretty light and after brushing off, the bead looks OK. I tried many different tap and wire feed settings just to learn the effects of higher and lower settings. Also, tried various stickout lengths from 3/4" to 1/8. 1/2" or so seems to worked best. Never got an absolute clean bead though.
The chart setting is real close, maybe a little hot because my line voltage is 242V.
Bottom line, still don't know what's causing the black soot. Is it normal to always have some? I'll fire it up again if I can find a solution. No sense melting more $$'s if it going to do the same thing.

[Paul Seaman]

I do get a bit of that and don't worry about it unless the weld looks like its peppered with porosity. Acitone is my friend!

[burninbriar]

Huge misconception about SS wire wheels mounted to grinders...you are simply smearing the oxidation around in a circle and pushing it further into the base metal...making more of a mess of the situation than helping..

-B-
I found this out by reuseing old sign faces that have been painted and or vineled, I was haveing so much trouble getting them clean I tryed useing a wire wheel and what a mess. The coating it left was so hard I had a heck of a time getting it off', I tryed sand paper and it bearly scratched it , was afreid to use a power tool again and since it was thin flat sheats it didnt leave much option. Now I just fork ouy the $ for clean material if I want to play with Al.

[barnett64]

Changed to a new roll of 4043 but still had the grey/black soot problem. Spatter is pretty light and after brushing off, the bead looks OK. I tried many different tap and wire feed settings just to learn the effects of higher and lower settings. Also, tried various stickout lengths from 3/4" to 1/8. 1/2" or so seems to worked best. Never got an absolute clean bead though.
The chart setting is real close, maybe a little hot because my line voltage is 242V.
Bottom line, still don't know what's causing the black soot. Is it normal to always have some? I'll fire it up again if I can find a solution. No sense melting more $$'s if it going to do the same thing.

Are you "pushing" or "pulling"? for MIG welding Aluminum you need to push to keep gas coverage over the puddle.
B.

[jolane]

I am interested in hearing the solution to this also. I have only tried 5356 in my 3035 and MM210, and expressed some of my feelings about the setup in another thread. I cannot get a nice bead. Maybe I need to try some 4043 and see what happens.

On a side note, I did try the 5356 on some thick aluminum bar, maybe 5/8" + thick, and when I turned up the feedrate and voltage, it seemed to be spraying away. I have no idea though when to use spray relative to material thickness.

Anxiously watching this thread...
Joshua

[tigman250]

I am interested in hearing the solution to this also. I have only tried 5356 in my 3035 and MM210, and expressed some of my feelings about the setup in another thread. I cannot get a nice bead. Maybe I need to try some 4043 and see what happens.

On a side note, I did try the 5356 on some thick aluminum bar, maybe 5/8" + thick, and when I turned up the feedrate and voltage, it seemed to be spraying away. I have no idea though when to use spray relative to material thickness.

Anxiously watching this thread...
Joshua

yes pick up some 4043, i think you will be pleasently suprised! i find it much easier to run!

i still have some things to try before i give up on the 5356 totally....i mean welding is welding right:rolleyes:

[calweld]

Normally mig aluminum you push the weld . . . the argon goes ahead of you, and gives you some cleaning action. If you push, any soot will nomally be on the sides of the weld, if you pull, the weld itself will be sooty. Dirtier material seems to make more soot, also poor shielding gas coverage. Keep the nozzle clean (better coverage) and flow rates usually need to be quite high (30 -40, sometimes more) for aluminum.

I do 90% repair work, I have found 5356 the best suited for this -- 4043 tends to crack, and doesn't handle impurities as well . . . Used aluminum seems to have impurities, no matter how much cleaning you do . . it seems to absorb into the metal, you can't get it out completely. I do a lot of trailer floors, you never seem to get them completely clean, also big livestock trailers -- definitely not clean:eek: I find if I try to spray I get incomplete coverage and fusion -- so I set it more short-arc it directs the arc better, I have better control of the puddle, but also creates more spatter and more pronounced ripples in the weld (you will have this with 5356 anyway). The kind of things I'm usually doing this doesn't matter, nobody cares what they look like only that they do the job. New material, 4043 looks much better and goes on cleaner, 5356 will spray but I've never got it to look as good as 4043.

[wb5jhy]

Are you "pushing" or "pulling"? for MIG welding Aluminum you need to push to keep gas coverage over the puddle.
B.
Well I tried both push and pull. Didn't make too much difference though the beads did look better pushed. Maybe I'll try even more gas flow. I thought 25 should have been enough but maybe not. The soot was just a light and fairly even black layer extending an inch or so on both sides of the bead. After a light brushing the bead looked fine. No visible porosity on the beads and they seem to wet in OK. Didn't want to try spray til I got the black soot thing figured out.
I don't have a dedicated tank and regulator yet for the spoolgun so I robbed the set off my tig unit to make a test run on the spoolgun before I posted feedback to the Ebay seller. I think the gun works fine. I just need to get a new gas set up and practice a little more with it.

Thanks for the replies and thanks to Tigman for letting me piggy back on his original thread.

Tom

[tigman250]

Thanks for the replies and thanks to Tigman for letting me piggy back on his original thread.

Tom

LOL no harm done this forum is for everyone to learn and enjoy, if you can learn from coming along in one of my threads all the better!

[HAWK]

I spooled about 200" of 4043 this weekend on a repair job. The 6061 base material was nasty. All the joints were overhead laps inside a pit. I ran spray arc at 25 volts with .035 wire from a TB302G with a #4 wire speed on my 30A spoolgun and 30CFH argon. Soot was minimal, but increased where proper travel angle was not possible to due some of the joints being within 3" of the pit wall. I had no soot welds where I could maintain a 15* angle push and 1" stick out.

I did not have any cracking problems inside the pit, but a few cracks started on top outside where I welding in the wind. I ground them out and rewelded after adding a second wind break. They turned out fine.

I probably should have used 5356, but was concerned about the smoke and spatter in the overhead position in a small confined area. The pit is about 4 feet square and 5 feet high. It was hard to maneuver around because the bottom was filled with flanged piping and valves.

[HAWK]

BTW: All surfaces were prepped by hand with a SS brush and wipe with a dry cloth.

[Sundown]

I spooled about 200" of 4043 this weekend on a repair job. The 6061 base material was nasty. All the joints were overhead laps inside a pit. I ran spray arc at 25 volts with .035 wire from a TB302G with a #4 wire speed on my 30A spoolgun and 30CFH argon. Soot was minimal, but increased where proper travel angle was not possible to due some of the joints being within 3" of the pit wall. I had no soot welds where I could maintain a 15* angle push and 1" stick out.

I did not have any cracking problems inside the pit, but a few cracks started on top outside where I welding in the wind. I ground them out and rewelded after adding a second wind break. They turned out fine.

I probably should have used 5356, but was concerned about the smoke and spatter in the overhead position in a small confined area. The pit is about 4 feet square and 5 feet high. It was hard to maneuver around because the bottom was filled with flanged piping and valves.

You are a tougher man than I am, hope you got richly compensaited for that job. ;)

[tigman250]

well today went great with the 5356, the settings were far from where the 4043 settings were though, i thought i could just tweak them a bit to get a spray transfer with the 5356.....not so lucky. i found that a spray transfer was prety much impossible with the 5356 the wire wanted to melt off before really adhearing to the base then you have a large BB that you are puddling on, so i stuck to a short circut transfer and with a few adjustments i kept the spatter to a minimum. one thing i found was a little preheat goes a long ways, just a few seconds with the torch made the starts look much better, without preheat the first inch or so looked very cold then after the part picked up a bit of heat the toes wetted out much better, with a little preheat the cold starts were completly avoided. lastly i found a little weave back and forth was almost a must, i do not use a weave with any other process but with this one i found it a must. and the black soot......i tried everything and found it is something you have to put up with!:rolleyes:

just wanted to let you all know what i found out and hopefully it will in turn make your next adventure welding with 5356 a little easier.......that is for thoes of you that don't already know this stuff:o

[wb5jhy]

well today went great with the 5356, the settings were far from where the 4043 settings were though, i thought i could just tweak them a bit to get a spray transfer with the 5356.....not so lucky. i found that a spray transfer was prety much impossible with the 5356 the wire wanted to melt off before really adhearing to the base then you have a large BB that you are puddling on, so i stuck to a short circut transfer and with a few adjustments i kept the spatter to a minimum. one thing i found was a little preheat goes a long ways, just a few seconds with the torch made the starts look much better, without preheat the first inch or so looked very cold then after the part picked up a bit of heat the toes wetted out much better, with a little preheat the cold starts were completly avoided. lastly i found a little weave back and forth was almost a must, i do not use a weave with any other process but with this one i found it a must. and the black soot......i tried everything and found it is something you have to put up with!:rolleyes:

just wanted to let you all know what i found out and hopefully it will in turn make your next adventure welding with 5356 a little easier.......that is for thoes of you that don't already know this stuff:o
I noticed the cold starts too. Good to know the preheat was so effective. Disappointed with your findings on the black soot problem. That's what's been bugging me the most. Not set up right now and may not get a chance to run some more beads til this weekend. I'm going to jack up the gas to see what, if any, improvement can be made.

Tom

[tigman250]

I noticed the cold starts too. Good to know the preheat was so effective. Disappointed with your findings on the black soot problem. That's what's been bugging me the most. Not set up right now and may not get a chance to run some more beads til this weekend. I'm going to jack up the gas to see what, if any, improvement can be made.

Tom

i tired that, went from 20cfm to 50cfm didn't really notice a diffrence, i think the soot is just the nature of the beast. i will have more time to play with it tomarrow, would have finished it today but the steel company didn't deliver the i-beams i needed:mad: let me know what you find out.

[HAWK]

Sundown,


Tougher man... No. Well compensated... Yes. Through the years I have found that I always take the jobs nobody else wants. The funny thing is I really enjoy the work.

[Sundown]

Sundown,


Tougher man... No. Well compensated... Yes. Through the years I have found that I always take the jobs nobody else wants. The funny thing is I really enjoy the work.

I often wondered what precentage of people enjoyed what they are doing, I would bet it isn't very large. I always enjoyed whatever I did on some level, lucky I guess ... great to hear you are having fun ... ;)

[tigman250]

I often wondered what precentage of people enjoyed what they are doing, I would bet it isn't very large. I always enjoyed whatever I did on some level, lucky I guess ... great to hear you are having fun ... ;)

i too love what i do, i have tried alot of jobs out liked them all a little bit but i love fabrication the absolute most. it should be illegal to have this much fun and get paid for it! most of my friends read Play Boy in the bathroom....i read welding manuals:rolleyes:

[Sundown]

i too love what i do, i have tried alot of jobs out liked them all a little bit but i love fabrication the absolute most. it should be illegal to have this much fun and get paid for it! most of my friends read Play Boy in the bathroom....i read welding manuals:rolleyes:

Can't read welding manuals in the bathroom, it's full of my wifes Blair clothing catalogs. I just have to make do with the recliner in the den ... when summer get here it will be back to the deck for me. You are right about fabrication, building metal things is an awsome way to pass the time IMHO.:cool:

[calweld]

my friends read Play Boy in the bathroom....i read welding manuals:rolleyes:

If this were a perfect world, we'd have welding manuals with pictures showing Playboy models demonstrating correct proceedures

:D :D :D :D :D :D