Mill / Drill Opinions?

[unixadm]

I'm looking at picking up a Mill / Drill combo. I don't have room for a knee mill nor really want to deal with the weight. This would also give me a large drill press which I could really use. I did find a rather large square column mill with quite a bit of capacity for $2100. It's an import (of course) and seems to have received some pretty high recommendations on the Mill/Drill Yahoo group. Ideally down the road it would be nice to outfit a mill such as this with CNC - but for now I'd just use and learn with it's manual capabilities. I'd initially buy it with the stand and down the road build a custom water table for it to recirculate coolant.

http://www.industrialhobbies.com/

It's on a pre-order right now with a delivery in March. I'm perfectly fine with waiting. If you guys have any specific Mills that you can recommend for under $3000, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I think I may go with this machine.

[tigman250]

i personally don't like mini mills, but then again weight,space and power availability aren't issue for me either.

take a look at this one http://www.smithy.com/cx288.htm i haven't used one but it's a little cheaper and made in Ann Arbor MI plus it uses standard R8 collets. if you look arround their site you can get diffrent machines also.

[joebass]

I know there already is a thread on this but I'm too lazy too look up the advice you alrady got, so heres mine. Since this isnt something you need right now, I'd wait until you have the room and buy a used Bridgeport. 3000 is alot of money for import stuff. You could buy a used Mill and probably a 13 inch lathe both older American iron for that. Especially when you consider that you will need to spend at least that on tooling. All those Imports are probably the same just different paint. I would buy the cheapest one you could find and use that for now. AS LONG AS IT HAS R-8 TOOLING. And thats If you really think you need it right now.

[Tailshaft56]

I haven't been out to the Yahoo mill drill group in a while but here's my 2 cents worth. Unless you see a need to raise and lower the head a lot I would just buy a round column M/D. The round columns have a better range of speeds and are just plain less expensive. Joe is right about the r-8 spindle and that's true of any vertical mill. I have a Precision from wholesale tool and am completely happy with it. If alignment gets to be to much off a problem I have figured a relatively simple mod to hold the head true that will still let it swivel if need be. I would pass on the stand and just make your own to suit yourself. The advantage to the square column arf fast speed changes and alignment.

Good luck with you choice.

Dennis

PS I'll try and post a pic later on.

[precisionworks]

I've used the Enco/Rong-Fu MD for almost three years, running hard:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=DP308-0478&PMPANO=0323431&PMKANO=56&PMKBNO=1298&PMPAGE=12&PARTPG=INLMPI

My machine has the two-axis AcuRite DRO, power table feed & stand. Currently on sale for $2658.95. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat if an employee is ever added.

The DRO is worth every penney that it costs, and then some. Can't begin to describe all the uses, but I would never get a MD or a full-sized mill without a DRO. You can buy a used Bridgeport in decent shape for $3000 -- without power table, without DRO. But it is larger, requires 3 phase power (or a convertor) and does not have the DRO.

The Enco is a horse. I drill and tap around 1000 holes per month, 1/2", 5/8", 3/4" mostly. No complaint from the machine.

[unixadm]

Guys,

I'm sorry if I've missed some mill advice in the past. I've only asked about drill presses and got a lot of suggestions to look at Mill / Drills which I've been doing for the past couple of weeks. I'd just like suggestions on mills in a similar price range ($1700-$3400).

If I buy a mill, I'd like a square column unit with a movable head. Long term, I can see the mill being CNC enabled for water cooling related parts being cut. To start off though - I need a good sized drill press that I can tap holes with, etc. I could also use the ability to slot material, etc for making some other shop tools. A Mill / Drill will serve both functions well for a long time to come.

I don't live in a heavy industrial area, so finding good used equipment around here isn't as easy as some other places. Believe me, I've looked. Either the equipment is wore out, broke, too big or over priced. Again, I'm in California. :)

So long story short, I'll most likely end up with a square column import mill. Initially driven using a single phase motor and soon to be upgraded to a 3400rpm 3 phase motor with a VFD. So speed selection is not really a concern.

I'll invest in a good Kurt vise, 3 axis DRO and some R8 tooling to start. My work will not be heavy production - it will be one off parts initially and if I need to get into small batch production, I'll CNC enable the mill 'if' it will make me money. What I am doing right now is a hobby and I'm loving every minute of it. I hope to take it from a hobby to a business in the next 24 months. Even if I never make a dime, as long as I'm having fun it's all good. You only live once, so you might as well enjoy it. I enjoy nothing more than creating things.

I appreciate your input.

Thanks and have a great New Year.

[unixadm]

I've used the Enco/Rong-Fu MD for almost three years, running hard:


Barry,

Your link did not work for me. Could you give me the Enco part number?

Thanks for the info!!

[precisionworks]

David -

Model #DP308-0478 for the sale price, Model #240-7151 is the same model in the catalog, page 368.

You may want to consider purchasing a round-column MD for general purpose work, and later adding a small CNC-MD for production. Sherline (& others) have turnkey packages http://www.sherline.com/8540pg.htm

[jolane]

Unixadm,
That looks like a nice compromise between the standard mill/drill and a full size machine. The travels seem good, and the vertical is really nice. Also, the quill travel is quite a bit more than the Rong Fu linked above. Nice find.

Can you post a link to the yahoo message group that talks about this machine?

Thanks,
Joshua

[Tailshaft56]

Try this link

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mill_drill/

[ichikuma]

I'm kind of in the same situation, working out my garage, don't have room or means to move around a Bridgeport style machine. I looked around a long time and talked to Aaron (at Industrial Hobbies) several times. I finally purchased two mills from him. The first one I bought was the manual machine, he threw in the stand for free so I just use that. It's basically used for finishing work and with the tapping head for the torque.

Then, I purchased a turn key CNC'd machine from him. I actually just got it setup and running last night. All I can say is, it's AWESOME!!! Now, it's not a Haas mill or anything but I was using a Taig CNC machine before, this one totally blows it away. The CNC mill has a NMTB30 taper spindle and a 5000 RPM motor.

If you have any specific questions about either mill just let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. Aaron is a real good guy and will take care of you if you have any problems with the mill or just questions in general.

I've attached some pictures, the garage is a mess right now, I've been setting up the CNC mill so it's crazy dirty and dissarray.

Craig

Manual_Mill (http://www.laptimerholders.com/MillImages/DCP_0292.JPG)
CNC_Mill1 (http://www.laptimerholders.com/MillImages/DCP_0293.JPG)
CNC_Mill2 (http://www.laptimerholders.com/MillImages/DCP_0294.JPG)

[jolane]

Thanks for the link Tailshaft.

Craig,
what are you using for programming the CNC? Bobcam? G-code manually? Nice looking machines.

Joshua

[ichikuma]

I'm using Pro/E for modeling and creating the NC code. The machine controller is Mach2. I'm just getting used to using Mach2, it's kind of cool because with the 30 Taper spindle, I can do tool offsets so later on down the road, do some kind of automated tool changer to speed up production.

[tooldude56]

Take a look at these mills.I have purchased and setup 3 of the larger 9x49 3-phase Grizzly mills for friends and for the money they are a lot of machine,considering they are Chinese and you just can'nt beat the low shipping from Grizzly.They also have several single phase models to choose from.I have personaly owned 7 milling machines.1-mill-drill,1-bridgeport,2-clausing Kondia,1-Cinncinatti #2,1- Cinncinatta #4 and I currently own a large Wells-Index and I can honestly say that all but the mill-drill were good machines and I could not reccomend a mill-drill to anyone for any real milling,but they do make a good drill press,though the height issue can be a real problem,unless you always use stubby drills in the larger sizes.With the amount of money that you seem willing to spend,you can do a whole lot better than a mill-drill.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/mach-specs-pdfs.aspx?key=480

tooldude56

[Tailshaft56]

I'm going to disagree with you on the mill drill in that you can do some good work with them if you are having $ and space limitations. I do believe they are a good entry level machine. I will grant a regular mill is they way to go if you can as the bigger machines are much more rigid and allow one to take more agressive cuts. In a production enviroment the full size mill will run rings around any mill drill or 3 in one machine. If I had the money and the time to use it more Grizzly or wholsale tool would of shipped one to me by now.

This was done on a Rung-Fu mill drill and an Atlas lathe by a friend of mine in Ks.


http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=73310

[unixadm]

I'm kind of in the same situation, working out my garage, don't have room or means to move around a Bridgeport style machine. I looked around a long time and talked to Aaron (at Industrial Hobbies) several times. I finally purchased two mills from him. The first one I bought was the manual machine, he threw in the stand for free so I just use that. It's basically used for finishing work and with the tapping head for the torque.

Then, I purchased a turn key CNC'd machine from him. I actually just got it setup and running last night. All I can say is, it's AWESOME!!! Now, it's not a Haas mill or anything but I was using a Taig CNC machine before, this one totally blows it away. The CNC mill has a NMTB30 taper spindle and a 5000 RPM motor.

If you have any specific questions about either mill just let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. Aaron is a real good guy and will take care of you if you have any problems with the mill or just questions in general.

I've attached some pictures, the garage is a mess right now, I've been setting up the CNC mill so it's crazy dirty and dissarray.

Craig

Manual_Mill (http://www.laptimerholders.com/MillImages/DCP_0292.JPG)
CNC_Mill1 (http://www.laptimerholders.com/MillImages/DCP_0293.JPG)
CNC_Mill2 (http://www.laptimerholders.com/MillImages/DCP_0294.JPG)

Thanks for the info and the pics! It looks like a really nice machine and you've got two of 'em. How do you like the manual machine? Is the motor decent? Does it run smoothly? Is it very loud? Did you have any problems with it?

Aaron told me tonight that the next batch should be here in very early March.

[ichikuma]

The manual machine operates fine. I haven't had any trouble out of it. Most people switch the motor out as soon as they get it for more HP. I'm going to keep the motor on it that came with it. Like I said, it's just a finishing mill for me. Operation is nice and smooth and it keeps tolerances so I'm happy with it. It's no louder than a Bridgeport, it's gear driven in the head so you always have that mesh of the gears sound.

For the price and the extra large table compared to some of the other import mills out there, it really can't be beat IMHO.

Thanks,

Craig

[wb5jhy]

I have an old Rong Fu unit also. Made a lot of side money with it in twelve years. No problems with the machine at all. Even with the original motor.

There's always pros and cons with any machine you choose. Even if a machine had every feature, capacity and quality you could ask for.... the "con" would be the cost. :D

The square column would allow you to elevate with out loosing your x-y location. A huge plus over the round column unit I have. I prefer the quietness and 12 speed options of my belt drive though. I can't speak for the square column unit as far as milling accuracy and "tightness" of the machine but my MD is not near in the same league as a standard floor mills so that limits work to shorter and less critical workpieces. Key slots, bolt slots, drilling, counter bores etc., no problems. Precision fitting pieces for dies and molds and such just ain't gonna happen. I'm talking about off the shelf units now. Any machine can be "accurized" by hand scraping and fitting but now we're talking more cost.

Bottom line is you have to determine where you want to jump on this "machine-go-round". Any machine would be useful to some degree for many uses. A lot of what can be done with a machine depends upon the operator's knowledge and ingenuity in setting up and fixturing so there's really no wrong or right choice. If there was, there would only be one machine style for sale. :)


Tom

[Scott V]

Here is another option.

http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=4812

[precisionworks]

I could not reccomend a mill-drill to anyone for any real milling

Three things are really important with the M/D:

The largest vise you can lift (the Kurt D675 or D688). Anything larger is a little big for the table, anything smaller is a waste of money.

A set of ER of TG collets for drilling & milling. The Bison ER-40 set is the most bang for the buck & allows you to run 1" end mills with no sweat. The TG collets are nicer, but more expensive.

A good selection of solid carbide end mills, from 1/8" to 1".

The M/D is not as rigid as a full size mill, which is the reason for super stiff (solid carbide) tooling, combined with a good set of ER or TG collets, held in a massive vise. My Enco thinks it's a Lagun when the blue chips are flying from a 1" cutter, and I'll never tell it anything different :D

_____________________________________________

but they do make a good drill press,though the height issue can be a real problem,unless you always use stubby drills in the larger sizes Headroom is not as large on the MD as on a B'port. However, it is enough to fit the largest TapMatic head (the 90-X) with a 1" NC tap. Not lots of headroom left, but an inch is as good as a mile in this business.

The M/D teaches you careful, rigid setup. Short tool overhangs are a must. Sloppy setup is not well tolerated. Table gibs need to be adjusted (as Goldilocks might have said) not too loose, not too tight, but just right.

There's nothing wrong with a B'port (or clone), if you have the money & the space. Don't short the M/D, it will do at least 75% of the work of a full size machine, probably more. As much as I'd like to have a B'port, there's nothing (yet) that the Enco hasn't handled. It's a good little money machine :D

[KB Fabrications]

Three things are really important with the M/D:

The largest vise you can lift (the Kurt D675 or D688). Anything larger is a little big for the table, anything smaller is a waste of money.

A set of ER of TG collets for drilling & milling. The Bison ER-40 set is the most bang for the buck & allows you to run 1" end mills with no sweat. The TG collets are nicer, but more expensive.

A good selection of solid carbide end mills, from 1/8" to 1".

The M/D is not as rigid as a full size mill, which is the reason for super stiff (solid carbide) tooling, combined with a good set of ER or TG collets, held in a massive vise. My Enco thinks it's a Lagun when the blue chips are flying from a 1" cutter, and I'll never tell it anything different :D

_____________________________________________

Headroom is not as large on the MD as on a B'port. However, it is enough to fit the largest TapMatic head (the 90-X) with a 1" NC tap. Not lots of headroom left, but an inch is as good as a mile in this business.

The M/D teaches you careful, rigid setup. Short tool overhangs are a must. Sloppy setup is not well tolerated. Table gibs need to be adjusted (as Goldilocks might have said) not too loose, not too tight, but just right.

There's nothing wrong with a B'port (or clone), if you have the money & the space. Don't short the M/D, it will do at least 75% of the work of a full size machine, probably more. As much as I'd like to have a B'port, there's nothing (yet) that the Enco hasn't handled. It's a good little money machine :D

Great post Barry. That's something I would have liked to have said.

As wb5jhy nicely stated,

A lot of what can be done with a machine depends upon the operator's knowledge and ingenuity in setting up and fixturing so there's really no wrong or right choice.
This is true for a lot of tools besides the mill/drill but is a point worth remembering. I certainly don't regret having my mill/drill and I wish David all the best in getting a machine that meets his needs.

[unixadm]

Well I've narrowed my choices down to three machines:

1. Industrial Hobbies Mill/Drill w/ Stand $2450 Delivered
2. Rong-Fu RF-45 w/ Power Downfeed, Power Table, 12-Speed (60-3000rpm), Stand $4,000 Delivered (Penn Tool Co.)
3. Top Tech Mill/Drill w/ Stand and Power Feed $1809 + Shipping (Penn Tool Co.)

From reading, the Rong Fu machines seem to be a bit better quality than the other RF-45 clones. I've priced out a nice DRO and that will run me just a hair under $700 with 3-Axis (another import, but nice and feature packed).

#2 is nice being that it has a two-speed transmission, giving you 12 speeds. It's a 3 phase motor though, so I would need to equip it with a VFD. So that would be another $300 or so.

I'm leaning towards the original Rong-Fu at this point. But I may end up with either the Industrail Hobbiers or Top Tech as it's about half the cost, but lacks a lot of features the real Rong-Fu has. I'll let you guys know what I decide. :)

Thanks for the help and feedback.

[jolane]

What features does the Rong Fu have that the Industrial Hobbies unit does not? I really like the table travel/vertical clearance on that IH model. The price does not seem too bad either considering it includes shipping. More speeds would be nice though. I think a 3 ph. setup would do the trick though, although it does add to the cost.

Just curious.
Thanks,
Joshua

[unixadm]

The Rong-Fu has a power feed table, power down feed, two-speed transmission and a 6-speed gearbox. So you can achieve 60 to 3000rpm out of the gate. However if I can only order it as a 3-phase, I'll have to add a 2-3HP VFD to provide single to three phase conversion. The geared speed range on this machine is nice.

The IH machine is impressive - due to it's table size and the spindle to table distance. It's not a bad machine, however it's geared towards CNC conversion. Since I need a more manual machine, I can always buy another mill down the road to CNC enable. I'm waiting on Aaron to answer a few more of my questions before I make the plunge on the IH mill. Few have the new 'big' boy mill - if any. Most guys don't buy a Rong-Fu if they are going to CNC it as you toss out a lot of the better Rong-Fu components.

There are a few other machines out there that have some nice features as well that I didn't list. The ZAY7045M from Wholesale tools is interesting. It has a 1.5HP motor, swivel table, 24" of travel on the table, drill/tap electronics built in and is cheaper than the IH mill. The one thing I didn't like about it is the head only rotates to 45 degrees. I guess I should have listed it as well as I'm also considering it. I'm waiting on a shipping quote from them. I'd equip it with a power feed on the table and a DRO. Grizzly also has a machine that has a nice drill/tap function, but it's 3 phase only so a VFD would again be required.

Here's a good link to some of the different machines: http://www.astro.premcom.com/ADM/ADM%20Products/ZAY7045M.htm

[Scott V]

#2 is nice being that it has a two-speed transmission, giving you 12 speeds. It's a 3 phase motor though, so I would need to equip it with a VFD. So that would be another $300 or so.

That will get you more speed and variable control too.
Table feeds and extra motors could be a issue with a VFD.
Generally one motor = one VFD.

[precisionworks]

Regarding the choice of DRO, there are many good brands that provide excellent factory support. Most are USA made, even if the name is Japenese (like Mitutoyo). I've read lots of horror stories about lack of service & inability to get parts for some imported units.

You may think you'll never need factory support, but if you ever remove the table from the M/D without first removing the reader head, you'll need a few parts :eek: AcuRite was superb with customer support & parts. They continue to support models that are no longer made. Anilam does the same. Sargon also. Probably more.

Ordering the DRO with the machine has the advantage of having all the hardware mounted & tested. Not that installation is a big deal, probably three or four hours at most, but something that can be avoided.

_____________________________________________

Kevin - Your Kurt setup is a duplicate of mine, except you have the D688 instead of my D675 :D Of the thousansds of these machines in operation, how many would you guess have an adequate vise? I'd bet no more than 10%, maybe 15%. Probably the same percentage for a collet system.

[Tailshaft56]

Guess I'm in the majority here but a Kurt is on the wish list.

Dennis

[jolane]

Thanks Unixadm for the detailed response and link. I really wish I had the room for one of these machines right now. I will have to wait though, but it is nice to see what is out there in smaller machines.

Good lulck with your decision,
Joshua

[unixadm]

Thanks guys.

I'm waiting to hear back from Aaron at Industrial Hobbies. Like most things, this isn't a simple purchase. Each model is different. One has this feature, one has that feature. One has a more ridgid structure, while others have less material in the castings. Some have crappy motors, some have good motors. It seems the only one that is almost a for sure deal is the true Rong-Fu JFC-45.

Right now the Top Tech is out, the Grizzly is out, the Enco is to much money, the Harbor Freight machine is out. I found issues with all of these machines enough so to discourage me from purchasing one.

The Lathemaster, ZAY series, Industrial Hobbies and a real Rong-Fu are all I've got left. These Dove-tail column machines are very popular and finding them in stock is a royal pain.

I already plan to equip the machine with a Kurt D675 or Kurt D688. I don't think I can get a much better vise. As for the rest of the end mills, cutters and collets - I have a lot to learn because I have no clue what I need at this point.

Can anyone recommend a good machining book? I'd really like to buy a good book and read up to educate myself before I buy much in the way of tooling.

Thanks!

[precisionworks]

Can anyone recommend a good machining book?

Machinery's Handbook is the best all purpose volume. Current edition is 27th, published April, 2004, about $65. Any volume around 1980 to 1990 is really good, prices run around $30 or so on eBay.

Metals Handbook Desk Edition is #2 on my list. Newest edition is 1999, around $200. I paid $50 for my 1985 edition from Abe Books.

[wb5jhy]

Thanks guys.

Can anyone recommend a good machining book? I'd really like to buy a good book and read up to educate myself before I buy much in the way of tooling.

Thanks!


I'd go to one of the big book stores and pick one out that suits your level of expertise.

The Machinery Handbook is more a must-have reference for when you get into the actual machining projects.

I'd recommend buying only tooling as the jobs dictate. Don't go crazy buying things you think you might need someday. You can spend hundreds of dollars a week for years on end and not have it all so it's not unusual to make a shopping list as jobs come up.

After the machine, here is a partial list for starters. Brands and styles will have to be decided on.

R8 collet set by 1/16's
Drill chuck (1/2 cap, keyed or keyless)
Drill set- preferably fractions, numbers and letter set
Common tap sets, plug and bottom for #10 thru 3/4"
5" or 6" vise (remember you have a small table, 6" seems a bit large to me)
Clamp kit
Measurement tools if you don't already have. Calipers and mics
A few end mills - you will buy per job mostly. Too many flavors to hope to have them all
DRO (nice to have but not absolutely required)


The list could go on and on. Indexer/spacer, sine table, tapping head, collet indexer etc. These you buy as you need if the job justifies.

Are you real sure you want to do this??? :D :D


Keep us posted.

Tom

[KB Fabrications]

I'd go to one of the big book stores and pick one out that suits your level of expertise.

The Machinery Handbook is more a must-have reference for when you get into the actual machining projects.

I'd recommend buying only tooling as the jobs dictate. Don't go crazy buying things you think you might need someday. You can spend hundreds of dollars a week for years on end and not have it all so it's not unusual to make a shopping list as jobs come up.

After the machine, here is a partial list for starters. Brands and styles will have to be decided on.

R8 collet set by 1/16's
Drill chuck (1/2 cap, keyed or keyless)
Drill set- preferably fractions, numbers and letter set
Common tap sets, plug and bottom for #10 thru 3/4"
5" or 6" vise (remember you have a small table, 6" seems a bit large to me)
Clamp kit
Measurement tools if you don't already have. Calipers and mics
A few end mills - you will buy per job mostly. Too many flavors to hope to have them all
DRO (nice to have but not absolutely required)


The list could go on and on. Indexer/spacer, sine table, tapping head, collet indexer etc. These you buy as you need if the job justifies.

Are you real sure you want to do this??? :D :D


Keep us posted.

Tom
Tom,
Fantastic post and good starter list. It's easy to get caught up in a frenzy when you first start out (I wonder how I know :o ) with tools like this. It usually works out that you spend more on tooling that machinery. Your advice on purchasing things as jobs come up is right on the money. I have got most of the things on your list and have added a few others based on specific jobs (the Kurt Minilock's or the Miteebites as an example).

David seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders so I think he will approach it with caution. One thing I will say, I have a 6" vise on my mill/drill and now would not want to be without it. It does have a large footprint on the small table but there hasn't been an instance where I thought it was too much. In fact, its large capacity has proved incredibly useful on more occasions than I could have imagined. I also picked up a set of hardened step keys so the vice could locate on the T-slots and be easily moved if necessary. The alignment with them is also right on the money.

[unixadm]

Thanks for the info guys. It's great.

I was not planning to run out and buy every possible item at the start. I'd just like to get some of the basics so I can experiment and learn. Again, the motivating factor here is the 'drill' aspect of the machine at the start. Having the milling capability is just a big plus, but will be a very sought after feature in the coming months. So buying a machine to serve both purposes would be ideal.

I did some research on the Mill/Drill Yahoo Group and people seemed to like the 6" vise on these size of machines. It is a biggie, but it gives you a lot of flexbility. Kurt was the most recommended vise, both there and on this forum so that is what I'll buy. I'm finalizing my choice of books (Thanks Barry) and will place the order today with Amazon.

The only thing I have yet to finalize is which machine and that just takes time. I'm not in need of one today, so unless a sweet deal comes along I'm going to take my time, do as much research as possible so that when I order the machine I know I made the right choice based upon the requirements I have.

Again, thanks for all of the information. It's extremely helpful and is very much appreciated.

Thanks!!

[precisionworks]

David,

One more book from my library (aka the Porcelain Throne Room) and a favorite :

New Encyclopedia of Machine Shop Practice, George W. Barnwell, 1941. Usually around $10 or so, although this seller has one for $5 http://www.continentalbooks.com/books.cgi?bk=9319

Truly a classic and well worth the money and the time to read. Hundreds of superb line drawings. Not much space devoted to CNC or CAD-CAM :D

[Tailshaft56]

Here's acouple of good ones and the price is not too bad.


http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.aspx?itemnumber=G4985


http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.aspx?itemnumber=G4986

Dennis

[unixadm]

Well I made my decision. I'm going to order up the mill from http://www.industrialhobbies.com It has the best specs size wize of any of the dove tail column mill/drill clones. A Kurt D688 will be right at home on this machine. I'll order it with the single phase and then replace the motor down the road with a Leeson 2HP 3-phase running off of a Hitachi or similar 3HP VFD with a remote operator panel.

I'm going to add a power downfeed and a power table feed for now. If I do decide to take on CNC machining, I'll purchase another mill just for that purpose. I'll start putting some dollars away for a Tapmatic auto-reversing tapping head and some other tooling and cutters. To start I'll just add a nice Jacobs ball bearing chuck to do some drilling, along with the Kurt vise.

I looked at a lot of machines, but shipping was the deal killer on most. Several of the machines would ship from the East coast and shipping was running about $500 with terminal pickup. IH has free shipping. :)

[precisionworks]

Looks like a great choice. Eager to hear feedback once you start making chips.

BTW, you'll also want a clamping set, similar to this:
http://www.wttool.com/c/13500003p
Measure your t-slots before ordering, most M/D slots are not the same as a B'port.

Best place I've found for Tapmatic heads is eBay. I've freshened up quite a few for myself & friends, not too difficult to clean and check the bearings and the clutch plates. Figure six hours on the first one :D , about two hours after that.

[jolane]

That sure does look like a nice machine based on the specs. I would like to see one up close and play with it, but your eventual review would also ;) I have been looking at the different offerings and would also lean towards this machine. The only real concern I have about it it parts availability. I am not sure whether any parts would be necessary, but if they were, can you get them? I assume that it is easier to get Rong Fu parts in the future. Maybe not.

Anyway, I am envious. I wish I could justify it myself.

Joshua

BTW, does anyone know whether it is possible to use this machine as a lathe by turning the head 90 degrees and mounting tools to the X/Y table? I have seen where people use standard Bridgeports as lathes in a bind.

[Tailshaft56]

You can do a little lathe work in a mill by chucking round work in a collet and mounting the cutting tool to the lathe table. move the work down the tool bit by advancing the down feed.

Dennis

[Scott V]

Here is a smaller version from Grizzly.
It's pretty light but interesting as
far as features.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0463

[jolane]

The manual machine operates fine. I haven't had any trouble out of it. Most people switch the motor out as soon as they get it for more HP. I'm going to keep the motor on it that came with it. Like I said, it's just a finishing mill for me. Operation is nice and smooth and it keeps tolerances so I'm happy with it. It's no louder than a Bridgeport, it's gear driven in the head so you always have that mesh of the gears sound.

For the price and the extra large table compared to some of the other import mills out there, it really can't be beat IMHO.

Thanks,

Craig


I am seriously looking at buying one of these also, and have a few questions for you. Hopefully you won't mind. What kind of tolerances are you holding with these mills? How well does EACH axis repeat, especially Z? How rigid is the quill, and dovetail z-axis? How hard is it to crank the Z-axis up and down with the manual setup? I am worried about this since it is in the back, which seems like a bad place to me. I will need better access with it in this location (or maybe just adapt a motor with a manual toggle switch to drive it up and down from the front). Have you done anything to the ways or anything else for that matter since you have owned it, such as lapping?

What increments are the dials in, and how many per revolution? Does the Z-axis have a dial on it, or just the quill fine feed? I am really unclear on how the depth measurements work on these, as well as an adjustable depth stop of some sorts. I would like to get a Newall 80 for it also, but that might have to wait a little while (vise and tooling is more important).

Finally, can you tell me what you think of the gear head in general? I like the quick speed change, but can you really use reverse (say manual tapping without a tapping head)? Do you get a clunk?

Thanks for any answers you can provide. IH website is not very good, and does not tell much about the machine. They seem to be more concentrated on CNC stuff, which is fine I guess, if it works for them.

Thank You!
Joshua

[precisionworks]

... but can you really use reverse (say manual tapping without a tapping head)? Whether belt drive or gearhead, tapping without a tapping head is brutal on the machine. It places great stress on both the motor and the drivetrain. It is possible - I do it on occasion - but it's not something you want to do on a regular basis.

Why not???

No depth control. Not a problem on through holes, but a tap-breaker on blind holes.

No torque control. A real issue on smaller taps, or when tapping harder materials.

No instant reverse. You have to flip the switch & restart the motor in reverse.

No fast reverse. Tapping heads run faster in reverse than in forward, which speeds up the work.

High quality heads (Tapmatic, Procunier, Ettco, etc.) sell for pennies on the dollar on eBay. They are well worth the money! :D

[unixadm]

Joshua,

I know you didn't pose your questions towards me, however I will try to answer what I know and also give you some additional information on the machine itself.

There are plenty of Rong-Fu 45 clone machines on the market. Enco, Grizzly, Lathemaster, Penn Tool Co., Wholesale Tools, Harbor Freight, etc.

From what I can tell, the best machines are from Lathemaster, Industrial Hobbies and Wholesale Tools. The other machines have lighter grade castings that I'd steer clear of.

The Lathemaster (http://www.lathemaster.com) was originally imported from the Tong Yong tool company. That company was bought out by another, but they still produce the same unit. What Aaron at Industrial Hobbies did was increase the specs of the machine to make the machine that he offers unique. His machine provides much more spindle to table clearance over the more typical RF-45 clones (23+ versus 18). His machine has a much larger table with axis travels of 30x12+ which is a considerable amount more than the other machines. He also had extra stiffening ribs installed in the base and the column for added support and strength. Lastly the gears were hardened for higher RPM operation. All but the 2-Speed RONG FU JFC-45N2F are rated to run at a max of ~1900rpm.

If you looked at the pictures posted in this thread that show the Industrial Hobbies Mill with CNC, you'll notice that the gear levers are gone. IH actually replaces it with a fixed belt drive with a 3-phase motor if you so desire for maximum performance. The gear drive is good for 3000rpm or so, with a belt you can go higher.

I spoke with Aaron for 45 minutes on the phone. I'm convinced that this mill is probably the very best clone you can buy. If you want the best quality, I'd say buy a real Rong Fu. They created the design, others just copy it. However I think as time has gone on, the clones have gotten right up there in quality.

Now I'm fully expecting to receive my machine and promptly tear it down before ever turning it on. I will spend over a week, part time lapping the ways, polishing the gibs, adjusting backlash and tramming the unit once assembled. At any point that you move the machine, you just re-tram it. So I would not expect this machine to arrive and I'd jump into using it with 100% confidence. The machine will operate much better with a litle prep work up front.

Motor and gear wise, I plan to run the stock 2HP 220V single phase motor for a few months. After which I'll add a 3HP Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) with a 2HP Leeson motor to gain full control speed control. Tapping wise, I 100% agree with Barry. Do not rely on the machines reverse capability to withdrawl taps. Get yourself a good Tapmatic self-reversing head and you'll be set. This is true for most machines.

I'm not the only one on this forum who is waiting on one of these machines. If you want some additional info and groups to do some research in, please shoot me an email and I'll send them over to you. I don't think you'd be dissapointed with this machine. It's a lot of machine for the price. On top of th at Aaron who own Industrial Hobbies is EXTREMELY sharp. The guy knows his stuff and even with his busy schedule he talked with me on the phone for over 45 minutes, telling me about the mill, what he does, how things work, etc. He told me about some of his future CNC kits and how he conducts business. Overall, I came away from that call VERY impressed. CNC is how he makes his money and he's currently replacing his old RF-45 clone with one of the machines he now sells. If he can use it for his production runs for the products he sells, it would be more than enough for my shop. He is focused on CNC and does it well, but he also sells a good machine to pair with his kits and technology to get the job done. Just my two cents worth.

[jolane]

Wow, Thanks both to Barry and David!

Barry,
I asked about the tap reversing for a couple reasons. I am well aware that a tapmatic head works well, and have used them personally before. With that said, I have also done a lot of manual tapping on through holes using the reverse switch only. Set the machine to run slow, coast the tap in, reverse and back out. Never broken a tap with this method, although I have always done it in aluminum with larger threads (#6 and up). Isn't this basically how a tapping head works? I assume the microswtich just hits a relay to reverse motor direction. This is also how a CNC does it, at least the Haas that I have used.
No doubt a tapping head is nice, but manual tapping should be fine also. What am I missing here?

David,
Thank you for the lengthy post. After all, it is your fault I am looking into getting a mill! No really, thank you for the information. I have wanted one for a while, years in fact, and now these RF45's look like they would fit my cramped garage. I followed your post and have been doing research for hours upon hours reading as much as I can about the Wholesale Tools, Enco, LatheMasters, and others. I just can't find much info about the IH, except that a few over at CNCZone would buy one. I am going back and forth on a knee mill versus square column. The square column seems to either have less capability in the Z-axis (in regard to ease of use and possibly precision) than a knee mill. I really like the smaller Jet JVM-836. It is more expensive, but has some advantages and disadvantages over the square columns.

Advantages:
1. More massive, possibly more rigid.
2. True turret style head with ram.
3. Can buy with 3 phase motor off the bat (saves a few hundred if going VFD).
4. Perceived Quality. The Jet's I have used have all been rather nice machines. I have used the older style mini knee mill with a different style head, and it wasn't bad.
5. Readily available parts "just in case".
6. Real Bridgeport style quill depth stop (I REALLY like this!).
7. Quill lock. Do the RF-45's have a quill lock? That is not obvious. I like how the Bridgeport style works (Another Biggie).
8. Power feed that is below the table! All the RF-45's power feeds protrude above the table surface! I really don't like this, although I do realize that simply blocking the part up to extend over would probably work.
9. Belt drive. Maybe this doesn't matter though.
10. Head tilt looks to be easier in that it has a drive for this. Looks to be worm drive.

Disadvantages:
1. More massive. Maybe this is a problem for people who want to put it in the basement. Going in my garage though. Higher shipping costs?
2. Smaller working envelope with less travel in all axis. The Z-axis could probably use an extension block. 14" is probably not enough. Why do mills have maximum clearances equal to the knee travel? Shouldn't the travel roughly be equal to the knee travel PLUS the quill travel. Even then, what about the tool length, vise height, etc? This doesn't make sense to me. A riser seems like it could do wonders here.
3. More expensive. I don't mind paying more though for real usable features or quality. I mush prefer quality over price! NO HARBOR FREIGHT for this purchase.
4. Speed changes would be harder, although with a VFD, this may not be a problem.
5. Probably can't use it for a lathe. Rotated head is too high. It looks like the RF-45 head can be lowered down to the table and rotated to be used like a horizontal or a lathe. Could be wrong here.

The Jet would probably be a clear winner for me IF the travels were bigger. I really like the IH for this reason.

Thanks for mentioning that the CNC is belt drive. I didn't notice that. I don't see it on their webpage either. I did notice that something did not look right in those pictures, but never realized that the handles were missing. Do you know if that is an available option by itself? Cost? I am looking at the Leeson 3PH motor upgrade and VFD. Do you happen to know about the speed range with that setup, and torque? I know that VFD's are available with constant torque, but I am not sure I fully understand this. Does that mean that motor torque is independent of speed, and if so, in what speed range? I would appreciate any links or knowledge you have on this.

As you expect, if I go with any of the RF-45 clones, I also expect to tear the machine down nearly immediately. I would make sure it runs first. I am mostly concerned with fit, FINISH, ACCURACY,
REPEATABILiTY, backlash, FLATNESS, etc. I realise that these are small mills, but I don't want to sacrifice these aspects for cost or size. They aren't going to cut like a big mill, but when doing lighter cuts, I expect these features. Otherwise it is a glorified drill press (wait, is that what it really is, J/K).

Do you happen to know what the lead screw pitch is, and therefore the handle increments? I am so used to even numbers on the dials (.100" or .200" full rev with .001" increments), I don't want something odd ball. I know a DRO who help, but I don't think that completely solves the issue. Repeated use might fix it, maybe not. It is human feel and touch after all.

Finally, do you know whether the z-axis has any dial readouts, or is the concensus that the quill is for fine depth control? I know is has the fine feed, but even that does not seem to be positioned very well for readability.

Thank you very much for the help!
Joshua

[unixadm]

Joshua,

I pretty much gave you all the info I have at present. What I needed was a large drill press, but this machine will do far more than that. I think a lot of guys these days don't realize how handy these square column mill/drills are. I also think the round column mill/drills have created a general dislike of the 'mill/drill' class when milling comes into play. I guess if I had the space and the capability to move a Bridgeport style machine, I'd go that route. However my space is limited and so is my ability to move equipment so I think this machine will do just fine.

Overall, I don't think you'll find too many real complaints about these machines from people who own them. There are a lot of people out there who will talk trash about something they have never seen, nor never used. A lot of time it's people being arrogant and ignorant. The only people I take advise from are those who own the machine or are not biased in doing their research. You have a lot of valid questions and I think a call to Aaron would get you the answers you seek. I think he will sell you whatever you want for a price. I didn't want to go overboard right off the bat so I stuck to a stock machine with single phase. Right now I have absolutely no way to do any type of milling. So this machine will immediately open up the possibilities. I guess it all comes down to what you want to pay. I bought a brand new very capable machine for less than a used worn out Bridgeport would cost me. That's a big plus right there. There is quite a following on mill/drills and CNC and I don't think people would spend the time or money outfitting machines such as this if they couldn't get solid, accurate and repeatable results. I was ready to plop down $2200 for a Ellis 9400 drill press, so in reality this isn't much different in terms of price and now I can do milling as well (on a fairly large scale).

If you were to convert one of these machines to CNC, I believe they actually use the Z-axis column to plunge the head into the material. For manual work, you would use the quill fine down feed. I do not know if there is an actual Z-axis scale or not. To my knowledge, there is a way to lock the quill into position.

As for Jet - I don't really hold them in very high regard over anyone else. They import machines just like everyone else with a different paint job and you pay a premium price. For example they sell a stomp shear that is identical to the one Grizzly sells - the only difference is about $700. Some of their machines are good and some are terrible. This is true for companies like Grizzly - it's really luck of the draw. After all we're dealing with items imported from China based on loose/flexible specifications to keep costs down.

The best advice I can give you is to buy what you are most comfortable with. Remember, part of owning a mill is being able to fabricate parts and do things you couldn't right now. If I need a better positive stop for boring, I'll machine one. I actually like this because it will give me a valid project to work on and providing I do it right, I'll have something to be proud of that was designed to suit my needs by the operator of the machine. You can't beat that and best of all, you can do it cheaply if you've got free time on your hands. :D

As for the tapping heads - I believe the self reversing taps actually reverse themselves as the mill continues to run in it's forward speed. Applying pressure turns the tap the same direction as the spindle, letting up puts the tapping head in a sort of neutral (it has a clutch) and retracting the quill will cause it to reverse at a rapid rate for quick removal from the part. I've never used one, but that is what I got out of the quick and dirty research I did on the Tapmatic R series tapping head.

[jolane]

I pretty much gave you all the info I have at present. What I needed was a large drill press, but this machine will do far more than that. I think a lot of guys these days don't realize how handy these square column mill/drills are. I also think the round column mill/drills have created a general dislike of the 'mill/drill' class when milling comes into play. I guess if I had the space and the capability to move a Bridgeport style machine, I'd go that route. However my space is limited and so is my ability to move equipment so I think this machine will do just fine.

Thank you for this. I really do apreciate it. I was merely thinking out loud.


Overall, I don't think you'll find too many real complaints about these machines from people who own them. There are a lot of people out there who will talk trash about something they have never seen, nor never used. A lot of time it's people being arrogant and ignorant. The only people I take advise from are those who own the machine or are not biased in doing their research. You have a lot of valid questions and I think a call to Aaron would get you the answers you seek. I think he will sell you whatever you want for a price. I didn't want to go overboard right off the bat so I stuck to a stock machine with single phase. Right now I have absolutely no way to do any type of milling. So this machine will immediately open up the possibilities. I guess it all comes down to what you want to pay. I bought a brand new very capable machine for less than a used worn out Bridgeport would cost me. That's a big plus right there. There is quite a following on mill/drills and CNC and I don't think people would spend the time or money outfitting machines such as this if they couldn't get solid, accurate and repeatable results. I was ready to plop down $2200 for a Ellis 9400 drill press, so in reality this isn't much different in terms of price and now I can do milling as well (on a fairly large scale).

I completely agree, thus the reason I was asking here. I can't stand people blowing smoke about things they have no clue about. I was merely trying to not bother Aaron as much as possible. I guess it is time to talk to him though. I also agree about the brand new mill versus a worn out Bridgeport.



If you were to convert one of these machines to CNC, I believe they actually use the Z-axis column to plunge the head into the material. For manual work, you would use the quill fine down feed. I do not know if there is an actual Z-axis scale or not. To my knowledge, there is a way to lock the quill into position.

I am not sure I want to convert to CNC with this machine. If I do, I would probably look into doing it myself for several reasons. I will keep those to myself though. Not that IH's CNC setup isn't nice, I don't have any experience with it, but I designed CNC and automation machines at a place of work also.


As for Jet - I don't really hold them in very high regard over anyone else. They import machines just like everyone else with a different paint job and you pay a premium price. For example they sell a stomp shear that is identical to the one Grizzly sells - the only difference is about $700. Some of their machines are good and some are terrible. This is true for companies like Grizzly - it's really luck of the draw. After all we're dealing with items imported from China based on loose/flexible specifications to keep costs down.

I am very aware of this. I like my table saw from Grizzly, and I built cabinets professionally for years to put myself through school. I am **** about machine quality, and my table saw is nice. I don't blanketly assume though that everything Grizzly is nice. Same with Jet. The last line here is the unfortunate part! I really wish there was an equivalent AMERICAN made RF-45. The Smithy though just won't cut it.


The best advice I can give you is to buy what you are most comfortable with. Remember, part of owning a mill is being able to fabricate parts and do things you couldn't right now. If I need a better positive stop for boring, I'll machine one. I actually like this because it will give me a valid project to work on and providing I do it right, I'll have something to be proud of that was designed to suit my needs by the operator of the machine. You can't beat that and best of all, you can do it cheaply if you've got free time on your hands. :D


I assume I will have to do this anyways to fit the DRO. I just want more clarification on how the stock machine works with respect to this. Maybe it doesn't though...


As for the tapping heads - I believe the self reversing taps actually reverse themselves as the mill continues to run in it's forward speed. Applying pressure turns the tap the same direction as the spindle, letting up puts the tapping head in a sort of neutral (it has a clutch) and retracting the quill will cause it to reverse at a rapid rate for quick removal from the part. I've never used one, but that is what I got out of the quick and dirty research I did on the Tapmatic R series tapping head.

This is how the Tapmatic head I have used works. Just pull up on the tap and the head reverses direction. On the Haas and Fadal CNC's though, the motor actually seemed to reverse direction based on sound. This was during rigid tapping, with coordinated z-axis motion. On a manual machine, with power tapping, you reverse the motor and use the quill spring to counter the quill weight. It is really easy. I guess you could always let the motor stop before reversing, just coast in. The IH does reverse right? I am pretty sure I read this somewhere.

Thanks again for your help. I hope it did not seem I was criticising. I wasn't trying to. I really like the working envelope of the IH. I just wish I knew someone local who had one so I can see it up close.

Joshua

[unixadm]

Thanks again for your help. I hope it did not seem I was criticising. I wasn't trying to. I really like the working envelope of the IH. I just wish I knew someone local who had one so I can see it up close.

Joshua

Joshua,

No problem and don't give it a second thought!! I've already made my decision and swipped my MasterCard. :) Aaron and Bob at Lathemaster have a great deal of experience with these machines. Aaron used to get his machines from Bob - however Bob was having trouble keeping up with his demand. So he decided to use the same manufacturer and import them directly. Thus far the most positive comments seem to revolve around Lathemaster. The IH Mill is simply bigger and better. You have FAR more experience in this area than I do. lol. I'm certainly no expert here, but I'm **** good at doing research. I am pretty picky about what I buy and I think I made a good decision for what my plans are.

Also I do believe it has a somewhat lousy positive stop on the quill. Check out this photo gallery - it might help some for some ideas. This is a real Rong Fu, but again they are extremely similar.

http://imageevent.com/tppjr/rf45dovetailmill

Please note though - the machine in those pictures has a power down feed which is why it lacks the quill depth indicator on the front panel.

[precisionworks]

As for the tapping heads - I believe the self reversing taps actually reverse themselves as the mill continues to run in it's forward speed. Applying pressure turns the tap the same direction as the spindle, letting up puts the tapping head in a sort of neutral (it has a clutch) and retracting the quill will cause it to reverse at a rapid rate for quick removal from the part. That's pretty much how the manual tapping heads operate. Here's a link for the X Series (30, 50, 70 & 90):
http://tapmatic.com/pdfs/XOpInst9-03.pdf
And a link for the R Series (3,5,7)
http://tapmatic.com/pdfs/03_R03.pdf

Also, a really good reference is their tapping handbook:
http://tapmatic.com/tech_manual/index.html

Very nice people to deal with. The ladies who answer the phone have all worked in the factory & know just about every possible question & answer :D