Electrical issues, comments welcome.

[90blackcrx]

Ok here is a quick run down on what I wanted to have done, I wanted to have 240v outlet in my garage, well I have a few obstacles in the way so its not that easy to get the 240v there. And my main panel needs an upgrade, well once electricians here this, it seems like money signs show up in their eyes. I have got quotes from 5,000 to 10,000 to run 240v into my garage. I went threw about 5 electricians, either they stood me up on the date they were suppose to come, or they just flat out never called me back. Some wanted to do illegal stuff, like tap into the main line and use no circuit breakers, the guy could not understand what was so wrong about having a 60 foot 240v line with no breaker.

Ok so I said enough was enough, my new idea is just to run 240v into my basement and run an extension cord, (I plan on opening a shop soon, so why spend 5,000 into my garage, plus extension cords come in handy in a shop). So anyways I talked to a electrician today and he said we could either upgrade the main panel, or run a sub panel in there and put some circuits in there. How does this idea sound? Is there any thing I should keep in mind or have him change while he is doing this? Any opinions welcome.

Also I plan on buying a 220v compressor soon, can I just wire it up so it will plug into the extension cord as well? Can I do that for any 220v appliance? Also if use two 100ft extension cords connected to each other, does the gauge of the extension cord need to go up ?

And this is all for the new miller welder that is coming in soon, either a 180sd or something bigger.

Thanks for reading.

[hankj]

90,

Answer a couple of questions, and some helpful advice will follow! ;)

1. What is the rating (main breaker amps) of the service panel now?

2. Are there any blank spaces for more breakers in the panel now?

3. Is "basement" and "garage" the same place?


Your 180SD will need 50 amps to run near top end. For an extension cord at 100' length, you'll need #6. Pretty spendy. The sub-panel sounds like the best plan, dpendending on the answers to the questions above.

Hank

[90blackcrx]

#1. Main breaker amps are rated at 100

#2. There are no spaces left in the main panel, its a 12 panel box

#3. Well I'm telling the electrician I will be welding in the basement, due to when ever I mention the garage, money signs pop up in there heads. So I will just run an extension cord to the garage. So he will be wiring it in my basement and I will pull the extension cord to the garage

I'm not against the extension cord, I'd rather spend a little on that, compared to $5,000 on wiring my garage.

I had a small business man tell me the extension cord idea was a good idea, but no one will want to do that because they won't make that much off of it. He said why spend $5,000 into this garage, when you are going to move into a shop. Plus when I open up a shop, extension cords will come in handy. I was just curious if I would need to upgrade to a bigger extension cord, if I need 2 connected together.

[hankj]

Sounds like you're between a rock and a hard place.

IF your main service panel can accept half-height breakers, you can consolidate a few circuits and make room for a two-pole 60A breaker to feed a sub-panel. If you CANNOT consolidate any positions, then the sub-panel has to feed the circuits you eliminate from the main to feed the sub, which is problem if the sub is going to be located away from the main.

IF you can add the sub panel breaker by consolidation, I'd direct bury #2 aluminum out to the garage and forget the extension cord deal. To go 200' with extensions and not get a substantial voltage drop at 50 amps, you'll need #4 copper. 200' of that will set you back more than the direct-burial #2 AL cable and a panel!

If you can do the work yourself, you shouldn't need to invest more than ~$250 to git 'er done, but if you gotta call a sparky in, that'll get in your wallet pretty good...

Hank

[Paul Seaman]

I've got an extension that is 4ga 100' long and with the ends and the recepticals the bill was nearly $400. The cable is about $3 a foot for comercial SO cable.

[TOMWELDS]

What the heck are they doing for $5000? Is it thru rock?..LOL..A 200amp service upgrade in the house should be $1200-2000..depending were you live. Describe the garage work in a little more detail.

[90blackcrx]

Why would I need a 200 amp service though ? hankj I can not due the half breakers because it is against the law from what I understand, and I'm not doing any of the work.

Hank you are also boosting the price, I can not burry the cable because there is about a 20 foot pool in the way, along with a concret patio.

The other guy wanted to run it all around the pool, that was going to cost me about 3,000 . The price keeps going up and up, so this guy quoted me around $800 which did not sound to bad.

Anyone have links to heavy duty extension cords ?

So basically, he is going to either upgrade the main panel, or run a sub panel. Then run that about 4 feet or so an install the 240v outlet. And will install a 60 amp breaker. So how much should all that cost roughly ?

Tom the garage work would be this, either you would run about 60 feet of line under ground around my pool. Then put a subpanel in the garage, but this guy wanted to tap into the main line and come right off of this, no cirecuit breaker or anything like that.

The other guy that quoted me 4,600 wanted to set me up for a war or something. I won't even go into the detail that he told me

[katiebo]

I recently installed a 100 amp sub panel in my garage, total cost was about $500-$600 including my branch circuits. (Thank you Hank for all your insight.)

One option, if you do not want to upgrade your service to 200 amp, would be to install 2 sub panels. One in the garage and one next to the current main panel. However, I would strongly recommend upgrading to 200 amp service, just for the capacity.

[Paul Seaman]

90CRX:
I've got 200 amps of service here, and the reason is, Dryer 30 amps, Stove 30 amps, AC 30 amps, garage 60 amps---OK there is 150 amps and I haven't even turned on a single light. If you think that I am the only house with these appliances think again. You are worried about the cost I understand that but also remember that the man doing the work as a set value for his time. If you devalue his time then you really don't value safety. What you are asking is probably $1500 to $2000 job just for a close run and a subpanel.

I started doing a remodel to a bathroom and the round about, rewiring the bathroom I broke a wire now I am re wiring the entire basement. I do my own wiring because I've been trained to do so. Paying someone to do somethng they are knowledgeable at is logical, so is accepting the fact that it isn't cheap. Doing electrical work has some of the highest liabilities of any construction work, electrical mistakes cause fires and often loss of life.

Please don't think I am a jerk, just very safety consious. If the house has 100 amps then don't try to run a 50 amp welder off it---PLEASE

[TOMWELDS]

Why a 200amp service?...it's about $100-200 more than a 100amp.

If the underground line is at least 5' from the pool and it's all dirt, it shouldnt be too expensive. Get a landscaper to dig the trench.

[90blackcrx]

I recently installed a 100 amp sub panel in my garage, total cost was about $500-$600 including my branch circuits. (Thank you Hank for all your insight.)

One option, if you do not want to upgrade your service to 200 amp, would be to install 2 sub panels. One in the garage and one next to the current main panel. However, I would strongly recommend upgrading to 200 amp service, just for the capacity.

I can not do it myself, I just can’t . I will talk to him about upgrading the main amp service.

90CRX:
I've got 200 amps of service here, and the reason is, Dryer 30 amps, Stove 30 amps, AC 30 amps, garage 60 amps---OK there is 150 amps and I haven't even turned on a single light. If you think that I am the only house with these appliances think again. You are worried about the cost I understand that but also remember that the man doing the work as a set value for his time. If you devalue his time then you really don't value safety. What you are asking is probably $1500 to $2000 job just for a close run and a subpanel.

I started doing a remodel to a bathroom and the round about, rewiring the bathroom I broke a wire now I am re wiring the entire basement. I do my own wiring because I've been trained to do so. Paying someone to do somethng they are knowledgeable at is logical, so is accepting the fact that it isn't cheap. Doing electrical work has some of the highest liabilities of any construction work, electrical mistakes cause fires and often loss of life.

Please don't think I am a jerk, just very safety consious. If the house has 100 amps then don't try to run a 50 amp welder off it---PLEASE

I will talk to the electrician tomorrow about the 100 amp service, I mean he is trained and if he has any doubts, I’m sure he will not do it. The guy that wanted 2,100 did not know what he was doing, I already said that. He wanted to tap into the main line and not run a circuit breaker. The other guy that quoted me $4600 wanted to wire my house so it would be like a business, he was talking about running a 6 foot main panel which was way to big.

Why a 200amp service?...it's about $100-200 more than a 100amp.

If the underground line is at least 5' from the pool and it's all dirt, it shouldnt be too expensive. Get a landscaper to dig the trench.

I was just curious about the 200 amp service, I did not know why so that’s why I asked. Upgrading to 200 amps is no big deal, but running this all to my garage is, I already had 3 guys come out and they all told me the same thing, on how hard its going to be.

I can dig a trench, my family is in the construction business, its the hole point of tearing up a patio for this service, I mean its a lot of work, specially when I will be opening up a shop soon and the garage will probably not get used much.

Sorry if I come off defensive or any other way, I have been waiting 4 months for this, and it seems like its finally going to happen. I just don't want to back track on my plan because the old one was not working at all

[df5152]

have the electrical company put a seperate meter on the garage and just put a panel in there. they should run the drop to the garage for free unless its an excesive distance from the road. then put a dedicated panel in the garage. you will get a seperate bill but will know how much electric you are using and can average the cost and add a percentage to your billing to pay for the electric. when u dont work in there no power will be used and a zero bill or what ever sur charge the electric company has.

[TOMWELDS]

If your family can get the trench dug, that price should come WAY down.

[hankj]

90,

I've worked in several states, and not found one yet that would not allow work according to the National Electric Code. Make a call to your local building official and ask about half-height breakers! If somebody told you it's "against the law", I'm thinkin' he's blowing smoke. It is by far the quickest solution to your problem.

200A services have been the minimum "standard" residential servcie for forty years. The service capacity does not necessarily "add up" to the total ampacity of the breakers in the box. It is recognized that no one runs everything they own at the same time. I have a 200A service in my house, and if you total up the ampacity of the breakers, it comes to 560A! I would not have a problem adding a 60A sub-panel feed to your existing service, provided it is installed per code. When you consider the duty cycle of the welder, the load is not that great, as it is intermittent. In any case, too much draw will trip the main if there are a lot of other things running when you try to start your copressor or weld.

There are alternatives to breaking the concrete patio. Boring is one that is used very often. If the total run is only 60', it seems to me that the effort will be more than compensated for in savings.

As for the second service drop, if your utility company will do it, it is a good solution. The only difference would be that you would need a driven ground system for the garage, but that's way simple.

Hank

[90blackcrx]

have the electrical company put a seperate meter on the garage and just put a panel in there. they should run the drop to the garage for free unless its an excesive distance from the road. then put a dedicated panel in the garage. you will get a seperate bill but will know how much electric you are using and can average the cost and add a percentage to your billing to pay for the electric. when u dont work in there no power will be used and a zero bill or what ever sur charge the electric company has.

Its not the distance, its how close the pool is to the garage. I had an electrician come today, he looked at me, and said, with that pool in the way and the patio there, you got yourself in a mess. The cost would probably quadruple if we ran it to the garage, so with the wiring setup in the garage, and a new welder coming, I would be looking at a total of 7,000 to 10,000 just to set up and be able to tig weld. I'm sorry but that is beyond my limits.

If your family can get the trench dug, that price should come WAY down.

The guy that wanted to do it this way said demo would cost $300. But he also wanted to tap into the main line with NO breakers

90,

I've worked in several states, and not found one yet that would not allow work according to the National Electric Code. Make a call to your local building official and ask about half-height breakers! If somebody told you it's "against the law", I'm thinkin' he's blowing smoke. It is by far the quickest solution to your problem.

200A services have been the minimum "standard" residential servcie for forty years. The service capacity does not necessarily "add up" to the total ampacity of the breakers in the box. It is recognized that no one runs everything they own at the same time. I have a 200A service in my house, and if you total up the ampacity of the breakers, it comes to 560A! I would not have a problem adding a 60A sub-panel feed to your existing service, provided it is installed per code. When you consider the duty cycle of the welder, the load is not that great, as it is intermittent. In any case, too much draw will trip the main if there are a lot of other things running when you try to start your copressor or weld.

There are alternatives to breaking the concrete patio. Boring is one that is used very often. If the total run is only 60', it seems to me that the effort will be more than compensated for in savings.

As for the second service drop, if your utility company will do it, it is a good solution. The only difference would be that you would need a driven ground system for the garage, but that's way simple.

Hank

About the breakers being against the law, there in fact against the law in Chicago, the reason being is because they can over heat and fail ( this is what I was told ) . So I don’t even want to go that route.

I understand the amperage draw now, but the electrician said not to worry about the 100-amp service, I went out of my way to ask him. So since he is the professional I will leave that up to him.

Also I make sure that major things are off when I’m welding, such as the air compressor, washer and dryer and pool filter and what not.

The electrician came today and said we should just run the outlet outside my house instead of inside the basement and he said it would be cheaper. (Remember this was the original plan so I was pretty happy he brought this up). So anyways he is going to upgrade my main panel to a 20-circuit panel, he said we could upgrade to a 200amp service but it was not needed, I made sure I brought this up and he was not worried at all. He also said he would make sure no circuits were doubled, if they were they would fix it for free. The total was $900 which I’m happy about, before anyone replies I want you to understand that I’m not doubting anyone of you guys, but none of you guys know the total situation I’m in ( because you can’t see the setup ).

Anyways I appreciate all the help.

EDITED: I just got off the phone with another electrician and he brought up the 100 to 200 amp service. He also said the 100amp service would work, but I would have to watch what other appliances were on at the time. He quoted me $1,500 just to run the outlet outside my house.

[TOMWELDS]

$$ Im working in the wrong state $$...LOL