Practice Welds (Something wrong with my Miller again?)

[KarateBoy]

Hey guys,

I just got my Millermatic 140 with Autoset back from service. I bought my Miller because of its reputation for quality and reliability. Then my gas solenoid went out under 2 hours of use. No biggie- maybe i got a bad draw. It sucked not having my welder for 5 days but that's life.

Now I get it back today and start going through some more practice welds.

Within 5 minutes I finish my first 2lb spool of 0.023''. So I switch the contact tips, the travel wheel, and I install the 2lb spool of 0.030'' mild steel wire and pull out some more practice sheets.

At first I like it. But for some reason the gun "jumps" a little every so often. Over the next 20-30 minutes, the keeps happening more and more often. What it seems like is happening is the wire is coming out of the gun but there is no arc. It hits my plate so hard that it not only pushes the gun up but shakes my plate. Now I'm worried something is else is wrong with the internals and the machine isn't creating an arc :(

As you can see from the pics, the welds get progressively worse using the same technique and settings.

Picture shown in chronological order. Maybe the machine is overheating? I am not getting the warning light.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3518/img2819.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3240/img2820t.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3994/img2821h.jpg

Millermatic 140 w/AS
Voltage setting 5
Wire Speed setting 55
16 gauge mild Steel

[davedarragh]

KarateBoy: Well, let's back track a little. 2# roll of .023 wire in 5 minutes would definetly heat the machine up, or use most of your gas. How big of gas bottle do you have? Did you also change your machine settings to compensate for the larger diameter wire? Are you using steel wire, and not stainless, or aluminum? What type of gas are you using?

I had a MM 140 A/S for a couple of years (before I sold it), and I never had 1 problem (other than the gas hose coming off inside, thanks to my drunken neighbor).

Double check your drive roll, wire tensioner, gun connections, volt/WFS settings. A pair of Welper pliers go for around $17-$20, and are more like a "7 in 1" tool, for nozzle cleaning, wire cutting, tip removal, etc.

Remeber the duty cycle question you had:confused: It doesn't take much to heat up those machines:D

Dave

[KarateBoy]

KarateBoy: Well, let's back track a little. 2# roll of .023 wire in 5 minutes would definetly heat the machine up, or use most of your gas. How big of gas bottle do you have? Did you also change your machine settings to compensate for the larger diameter wire? Are you using steel wire, and not stainless, or aluminum? What type of gas are you using?

I had a MM 140 A/S for a couple of years (before I sold it), and I never had 1 problem (other than the gas hose coming off inside, thanks to my drunken neighbor).

Double check your drive roll, wire tensioner, gun connections, volt/WFS settings. A pair of Welper pliers go for around $17-$20, and are more like a "7 in 1" tool, for nozzle cleaning, wire cutting, tip removal, etc.

Remeber the duty cycle question you had:confused: It doesn't take much to heat up those machines:D

Dave

Dave,

Both wires were ER70-S6 mild steel.

The 0.023'' wire was not used constantly for 5 minutes. I never lay a practice weld longer than 2-3'' and I take pretty long breaks between beads because I am conscious of the duty cycle. I had VERY little wire left so I laid a total of about 5'' of bead with the last of my 0.023'' over 5 minutes.

It took me at least 10 minutes to switch over from the empty 0.023'' to 0.030'' so I should have started on a new duty cycle. I only laid 6 beads with the 0.030'' wire. I have posted 3 of the beads.

I have a 40 CF bottle that still has over 80 bar left and my regulator is set on about 25cfm. My gas is 75/25 Argon/CO2

Yes, I changed my settings to compensate for the large diameter wire to factory recommended settings. I also changed the contact tip, drive wheel,and double check wire tension before the first bead and after the first two. I also clean my contact tip and nozzle after every single bead. I even tried moving the earth clamp closer to the area I was going to lay the bead on.

Everything is the same between all 3 beads settings wise, it just feels like the wire just started running into the steel sheet without an arc.

[urch55]

Since your machine is new have you checked the cable lugs in side the machine to make sure they are tight.? And the connection on your ground clamp itself.? Plus is you gun connection fully seated in the machine and the retaining bolt tight.? If it isn't something simple like what I just spoken of, take it back in for warranty work. don't take the cover off the machine because you may void the warranty.. Thees are just some thoughts that came to mind..
Bob :cool:

[KarateBoy]

Since your machine is new have you checked the cable lugs in side the machine to make sure they are tight.? And the connection on your ground clamp itself.? Plus is you gun connection fully seated in the machine and the retaining bolt tight.? If it isn't something simple like what I just spoken of, take it back in for warranty work. don't take the cover off the machine because you may void the warranty.. Thees are just some thoughts that came to mind..
Bob :cool:

Let me verify some of the terminology you are using.

Cable lugs are the wires that determine polarity? Then yes they are tight.
Ground clamp is tight.
Gun is fully seated. I adjusted it today after the service guy removed the gun. As far as I know, an improperly seated gun would duffer from gas leaks.
Are you calling the retaining bolt the gas diffuser that the contact tip screws into? I know that my diffuser came back with a small notch in the thread but I cannot imagine it causing the problems I am seeing.
Maybe you're calling the retaining bolt the one that hold the torch down inside the machine? Then yes it is screwed all the way down.

I haven't touched my machine since I made the original post. I spent a godo amount of time cleaning up and polishing the base metal. Now, I am getting much less wire spatter and brown residue but it still feels like the gun is not delivering enough heat into the metal. I'll try cranking the voltage up more tomorrow but I am already a little past factory recommended settings on both V and WFS.

Maybe if I give more details about the process it will shed some light.

1) Wire touches base metal and spatters like crazy.
2) Weld pool builds up and I move a little forward.
3) As soon as I move from the original location the the wire goes back to spattering
4) I have to wait for the weld pool to build up again before moving forward.

Some of the welds are looking okey- like in picture 1- but that is because I keep moving back and forth from the weld pool to the next spot. It's like the weld pool doesn't move at all.

[Desertrider33]

Decrease the wire speed, or increase the voltage. Keep your stickout length no more than 1/2" and don't lay the gun down at a low angle. Keep the gun more vertical than horizontal.

[KarateBoy]

Decrease the wire speed, or increase the voltage. Keep your stickout length no more than 1/2" and don't lay the gun down at a low angle. Keep the gun more vertical than horizontal.

I am definitely going to try that. I was a little hesitant to travel far outside the settings because everyone told the that they are "factory tested to perfection" so I assumed its either me or the machine screwing up.

I have been paying more attention to keeping the gun 10-15 degrees from perpendicular and I have seen myself wander to more than a 1/2'' stick out.


I think part of the problem is that I do not have a comfortable way of doing this. The only thing I can place the metal on is a 5 foot wooden A shaped frame (don't worry it's not going to catch fire- already tried). At 5 feet, its too tall to sit down at and to short lean over over comfortably. Moreover, with the bench being about 5 feet tall and me trying to keep the torch almost perpendicular, my elbow is almost above my head :rolleyes:

I also don't know how I should position myself to the torch. Should the travel be parallel to me or perpendicular? I tend to see video of the travel being perpendicular but then I have a difficult time finding and angle were the torch doesn't block my view of the weld pool

[Desertrider33]

When you're first learning, it's easier to travel right/left or left/right than towards or away from yourself. As you get better, you'll be able to weld in any direction and in any position. For now concentrate on flat, set out in front of you in a comfortable position, and use the other hand to lightly brace the torch hand and help guide the motion of the torch. You may need to set up a couple saw horses and lay a piece of flat plate accross them to use as a table.

[myistar]

I did want to mention something, just to check something that can cause problems, is the unit plugged directly into the wall? or are you using an extension cord, if an extension cord then you'd have to have one big enough that can supply all that power that welder is sucking up. I know that can cause in consistent welding.

[ace4059]

I did want to mention something, just to check something that can cause problems, is the unit plugged directly into the wall? or are you using an extension cord, if an extension cord then you'd have to have one big enough that can supply all that power that welder is sucking up. I know that can cause in consistent welding.

YES that can. I have had a problem using an ext cord and I could figure out what the problem was, until I unplugged it and then it dawned on me.

post your location in your profile, and maybe someone on the board lives close to ya. If your nice to them, they might come by and run your machine and see if anything is wrong. That way it will rule out if it is the machine or it is just you.

[Craig in Denver]

Please clarify for me; are you saying those first three pics were welded with the same settngs? The brown soot is the sign of a shielding problem and it gets worse in the second two pics; implying that you're running out of gas. Like you, I respect Miller quality and find it hard to believe that the solenoid would fail twice.

You really need to get in a comfortable position. Although I sit on a milk crate, my work surface is a comfortable height above that. I think someone already said to do a dry run thru each bead to make sure you bend that way. I usually weld 'upper right to lower left' (but flat on the table) pushing the torch toward my left shoulder. That way I can lean to my left and see the puddle coming across. You must be able to see the puddle, it's how all manual welding processes work. Use both hands to stabilize the torch, again; dry run. Some guys hold the tube with the other hand, others hold the torch with two hands, like firing a high powered hand gun. If you use reading glasses, use them under your helmet too.

[KarateBoy]

I did want to mention something, just to check something that can cause problems, is the unit plugged directly into the wall? or are you using an extension cord, if an extension cord then you'd have to have one big enough that can supply all that power that welder is sucking up. I know that can cause in consistent welding.

It's plugged into the wall in my garage- no extension cord.

I live near Chicago: Park Ridge, IL

[KarateBoy]

Please clarify for me; are you saying those first three pics were welded with the same settngs? The brown soot is the sign of a shielding problem and it gets worse in the second two pics; implying that you're running out of gas. Like you, I respect Miller quality and find it hard to believe that the solenoid would fail twice.

You really need to get in a comfortable position. Although I sit on a milk crate, my work surface is a comfortable height above that. I think someone already said to do a dry run thru each bead to make sure you bend that way. I usually weld 'upper right to lower left' (but flat on the table) pushing the torch toward my left shoulder. That way I can lean to my left and see the puddle coming across. You must be able to see the puddle, it's how all manual welding processes work. Use both hands to stabilize the torch, again; dry run. Some guys hold the tube with the other hand, others hold the torch with two hands, like firing a high powered hand gun. If you use reading glasses, use them under your helmet too.


Yes, all 3 welds are on the same settings. I don't think I am running out of shielding gas. b/cI have over 80 bar left. When I practiced a few more beads after the original posting, I had no more brown residue and much less spatter.

[ironyworks]

Here are more things to check...
If you twist or run the wire feed cable in a loop or around too sharp a corner, it will hang up and stutter..common problem, especially with longer leads. The straighter that cable is, the smoother the wire feed.
Check the wire liner ends for sharp burrs or snags. Blow the liner out with compressed air.
Check the opening of the contact tip for intruding bits of spatter.
Is there any rust on the new wire? that'll cause problems.
might be your gas pressure is too high..that'll cause turbulence and suck in air.
Shut down your main breakers and open the electrical boxes to check the connections for clean contact and tight screws and fasteners.
I assume you can hear the gas hissing when the machine is on, right?
Check all your cable end connections carefully. Corrosion in the ground cable to ground clamp connection is common.
Keep your torch to work clearance tight. Set up so you can rest your forearms on something to steady your hand.
If you have had a spatter problem, undo the front parts of the torch assembly and clean them out..make sure the inert gas feed holes are clear.
Then use some spatter spray on em.
MIG is supposed to be easier, but with all the extra fussing around entailed..i kinda doubt it.

[Bodybagger]

First thing is this. The only .030" wire that should be run in that machine is flux core.

Second thing is that the metal should be clean to bare metal. Polishing is not necessary and if you use polishing compounds such as stick rouge, you will introduce gunk to the surface thats worse than welding over the mill scale.

What is the shielding gas flow rate?

Before you answer, let me stop you. If you don't have a ball type flow meter you don't know what the flow rate really is. Yes, you can tell what the regulator is set at, which reads backpressure behind a .032" orifice, but kink your hose to completely stop the flow and it will actually read just a little bit higher.

What is the voltage at the plug while welding?

Just a couple ideas.

[davedarragh]

First thing is this. The only .030" wire that should be run in that machine is flux core.

Second thing is that the metal should be clean to bare metal. Polishing is not necessary and if you use polishing compounds such as stick rouge, you will introduce gunk to the surface thats worse than welding over the mill scale.

What is the shielding gas flow rate?

Before you answer, let me stop you. If you don't have a ball type flow meter you don't know what the flow rate really is. Yes, you can tell what the regulator is set at, which reads backpressure behind a .032" orifice, but kink your hose to completely stop the flow and it will actually read just a little bit higher.

What is the voltage at the plug while welding?

Just a couple ideas.

Bodybagger: .035 flux-core. .023/.030 steel-solid wire setting parameters are listed under the lid for this machine. The AutoSet feature is designed for both .023 and .030 solid steel wire and C-25 gas.

Dave

[KarateBoy]

I have to head to class now but I will post an update with all the new checks, suggestions, recommendations, and updates.

I want to thank everyone for taking some time out to help me :cool:

[Johnny]

I have read all of the posts above. It's all very informative especially since I own a MM140 auto-set.

My Spoolmate 100, I assume you are not using one, had a gas delivery issue that was caused by the liner separating at the gun. You couldn't see an issue other than the obviously bad welds on aluminum from a lack of shielding gas. I know it's a long shot but worth noting.

[davedarragh]

Yes, all 3 welds are on the same settings. I don't think I am running out of shielding gas. b/cI have over 80 bar left. When I practiced a few more beads after the original posting, I had no more brown residue and much less spatter.

So you have a flow gauge that reads in BAR units, as well as PSI? 80 bar would be around 1200 psi. (1 BAR unit equals 14.5037744 psi). That's ample gas. Make sure it's not 80 PSI, becuase then, you'd be out.

Have you tried the Auto-Set feature? It's designed for use with either .023 or .030 solid ER70S-6 wire and C-25 gas. Double check your drive roll, the .030 number should be facing OUT (if it's a "dual roll"), becuase it sure looks like a feed problem, as well as gas.

Too bad you're 2500 miles away, I'm sure I (among many other Forum members) could get it figured out in a matter of minutes.

Keep us posted. They're good little machines, sometimes I wish I still had mine.:D

Dave

[KarateBoy]

So you have a flow gauge that reads in BAR units, as well as PSI? 80 bar would be around 1200 psi. (1 BAR unit equals 14.5037744 psi). That's ample gas. Make sure it's not 80 PSI, becuase then, you'd be out.

Have you tried the Auto-Set feature? It's designed for use with either .023 or .030 solid ER70S-6 wire and C-25 gas. Double check your drive roll, the .030 number should be facing OUT (if it's a "dual roll"), becuase it sure looks like a feed problem, as well as gas.

Too bad you're 2500 miles away, I'm sure I (among many other Forum members) could get it figured out in a matter of minutes.

Keep us posted. They're good little machines, sometimes I wish I still had mine.:D

Dave

Yep, my regulator does both PSI and bar. When my bottle was full, it was pumped up to 240 bar, about 3500 psi.

I did double check the drive roll- the 0.030'' needs to face out because the wire spins on the inside groove.

I have also double and triple checked the wire travel by letting the wire come out on an insulated surface (wood) and it looks even to me.

I definitely wish I knew someone who is an experienced welder. I bet it would make some of these questions easier as well as the learning curve :)

[loudnproud]

looks like the wirefeed and voltage are not balanced. set your amps where you want it then adjust your wire speed up or down to where it gives the smoothest sound. sometimes those dials on the box are not spot on accurate. it may help to have an assistant slowly adjust the knob while you are welding to get it in tune.

keep your travel angle and stickout in the back of your mind while you're watching the puddle and staying on the leading edge. don't outrun the puddle and don't go slow enough that you are back in the middle of it.

usually when the welds turn out dark grey like that you've got too much heat. grind those welds off and keep trying.

[davedarragh]

looks like the wirefeed and voltage are not balanced. set your amps where you want it then adjust your wire speed up or down to where it gives the smoothest sound. sometimes those dials on the box are not spot on accurate. it may help to have an assistant slowly adjust the knob while you are welding to get it in tune.

keep your travel angle and stickout in the back of your mind while you're watching the puddle and staying on the leading edge. don't outrun the puddle and don't go slow enough that you are back in the middle of it.

usually when the welds turn out dark grey like that you've got too much heat. grind those welds off and keep trying.

Set your AMPS where you want, then adjust WFS? I think you mean set your VOLTS. WFS adjusts amps on CV machines. These small MIGS have the parameters set very closely, and not a whloe bunch of "monkeying" around is really needed. Even with my Trailblazer and 8VS feeder, once I set it from the chart(s), I can go all day long with very little "fiddling" around.

For instance, with .045 FCAW-gs wire, running 100% CO2, @ 24.5 Volts and 275 IPM, smooth as a whistle, all day long.

Dave

[pumahvac]

hey karateboy,
i live around talcott and canfield. my garage is basically a welding shop. i think we can probably get you moving in the right direction. let me know if you want to bring it over and i'll see what's up.
wally

[KarateBoy]

Hey guys,

All i did today was reduce the wire speed and things started going well. I barely changed it but it worked.

Here are a few more practice welds. I finally found a semi-comfortable position that helps me keep my hand pretty straight- too bad the metal I was welding couldn't be anymore bent :D

No sound is as sweet as the sound of bacon frying

Please look at only the 3 horizontal welds. The top welds were when my gas solenoid failed.
Front

Weld style: right to left
Half Moon Weaves -------------------------Half Moon Weaves -------------------------------Zip-Zag Weave
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3081/img2822s.jpg


Back- this picture still doesn't catch how bent up the sheet of metal is.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/281/img2824k.jpg



As you can see, only the left side of the welds has brown residue. I think this is because I am welding outside in the wind. I know its not ideal with solid wire but I do not have room in my garage atm.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5079/img2823xpc.jpg


I've noticed that I am burning through at similar distances, let's say every inch, what do you think I should do? When I adjusted the Voltage just a hair I lost the "frying bacon" sound. I'm thinking increase my travel speed. I must be pausing every so often.

[KarateBoy]

hey karateboy,
i live around talcott and canfield. my garage is basically a welding shop. i think we can probably get you moving in the right direction. let me know if you want to bring it over and i'll see what's up.
wally

Wow that's close :eek:

I am on Touhy and Greenwood. I just moved from Higgins and Canfield - former Maine South grad here.

Name a place and time and I will try to accomodate: I want to learn :cool:

Are you the Wally of Wally's Gyros? :)

[pumahvac]

no i am not.
anyway, e-mail me and we'll figure it out.
pumahvac@comcast.net.

[loudnproud]

Set your AMPS where you want, then adjust WFS? I think you mean set your VOLTS. WFS adjusts amps on CV machines. These small MIGS have the parameters set very closely, and not a whloe bunch of "monkeying" around is really needed. Even with my Trailblazer and 8VS feeder, once I set it from the chart(s), I can go all day long with very little "fiddling" around.

For instance, with .045 FCAW-gs wire, running 100% CO2, @ 24.5 Volts and 275 IPM, smooth as a whistle, all day long.

Dave

Typo, You're correct, Volts... Just because you lined it up perfectly on the knob doesn't mean its running at that speed. If someone adjusted it for him while he was welding it might clear up some confusion for him on how the machine is reacting to the settings

[Craig in Denver]

Half Moon Weaves -------------------------Half Moon Weaves -------------------------------Zip-Zag Weave

No weaving on sheetmetal. It slows down your travel speed and allows heat to build up.

Back- this picture still doesn't catch how bent up the sheet of metal is.

Remember these next three words: all welds shrink. There is no way around it. Sheetmetal is thin and warps the worst. Try spacing your test beads twice as far apart, then flip the piece over and weld in between your first welds. It will pull the piece back toward flat, somewhat. On practice pieces, you can quench your piece between welds; DO NOT quench real pieces, it will make them brittle.

As you can see, only the left side of the welds has brown residue. I think this is because I am welding outside in the wind. I know its not ideal with solid wire but I do not have room in my garage atm.

Well, at least wait for a lull. It's one more piece to the puzzle.

I've noticed that I am burning through at similar distances, let's say every inch, what do you think I should do? When I adjusted the Voltage just a hair I lost the "frying bacon" sound. I'm thinking increase my travel speed. I must be pausing every so often.Frying bacon is what you want. I took a basic MIG autobody class, maximum weld length was 1 5/8". You don't get to make long welds on sheetmetal. As above, no weaving.

[KarateBoy]

So on thin sheet metal, I should use a straight (stinger) bead?

Quench my work? Do you mean in water?

The point of me saying the metal was very bent was because the metal was hammered to death beforehand giving me a misaligned surface to practice on.

I welded the two pieces together a few days ago and I wanted to test the weld. I was hitting it as hard as I could to see what would fail first, the weld or base metal. The weld won :D

Any suggestion on other testing methods? I don't care about destroying the work on test welds.

[Desertrider33]

For now, just run straight stringers. Weaving on thin metal can put too much heat into it.

On your weaving (on thicker metals), don't advance the torch so far between weaves. See how the toe lines (edges of the bead) look wiggly and the bead looks lumpy? You want to keep the toe lines straight and even. Advance the torch forward only about half the puddle size between side to side oscillations. Don't whip out of the puddle. That will help keep the toe lines straighter and bead more uniform.

You want the bead to look like this (((((((((((( not this CCCCCCCC

Quenching is just dousing or dipping the hot metal in water or oil to cool it.

A good way to test a weld is a bend test. Hold one side in a vice and bend the other side with a big crescent wrench or pipe wrench. A press is needed to bend test on thicker metal.

[KarateBoy]

Let's say that I am butt welding two thin pieces of metal- about 16 gauge - should I still not use a weaving motion?

I'm having a hard time imagining getting the weld pool to travel from one piece to the other without a weave.

[davedarragh]

Let's say that I am butt welding two thin pieces of metal- about 16 gauge - should I still not use a weaving motion?

I'm having a hard time imagining getting the weld pool to travel from one piece to the other without a weave.

KarateKid: If you've got .030 wire in there now, try some 1/8" material instead to get the hang of MIG welding. When you perfect some basic joints, then load some .023 back in ther and try sheet metal.

For a "newbie" sheet metal can be defeating. Get some 2" x 1/8" flat stock cut into 4 or 5" lengths, try some butts, tees, etc.

And stay out of the wind;)

Dave

[SundownIII]

After reading the whole post, I've come to the conclusion that the whole "machine problem" to begin with was the "loose nut on the trigger switch".:rolleyes:

[Bodybagger]

That's kinda what I was getting at when I said he should only be running .030" flux core. I was not implying that the machine was too weak to run .030 wire in it. Just that he needs to master the lighter wire before the heavier wire.

[Desertrider33]

Let's say that I am butt welding two thin pieces of metal- about 16 gauge - should I still not use a weaving motion?

I'm having a hard time imagining getting the weld pool to travel from one piece to the other without a weave.

No Weave.

Keep the gap tight, about the same as the diameter of the wire (1/32"). No need to worry, it will weld both pieces. 16 ga galv open butt joints with .035 fluxcore is what my D1.3 test was for. Stringers, straight as an arrow, is what works best.

[KarateBoy]

Thanks again guys.

Dave you were right, I posted my location and a local from the forums offered to help :cool:

[JZIMM]

Karateboy:

I have a MM140 and would find it interesting to know what you found causing your problems. I have had wire feed problems and have worked that out. Also problem with need of good ground on work. If not the wire will arc to tip. I am running .030 flux core.

JoeZ

[walker]

Just curious, why are you not using the Autoset feature of this machine? I have the same machine but only use CO2, as I have lots for my other machines, and it does not like that, but you are using c-25 and could use this feature.