Welding Prices $$$$$$$

[Top Dog Welding]

I am currently a Navy welder certified in GTAW steel, stainless, nickel, aluminum. SMAW steel, and GMAW in steel, stainless, and aluminum. I am looking to start my own moonlight side business. I have already looked at all the toys and goodies I want to buy. I am curious as to what to charge. If you guys out there could lemme know what would be good fair rates to charge i would appreciate it. A little background info, I am experienced, I know my stuff, i just never had to charge before. Also I am looking for mobile rates, and rates if they bring it to me. THANX!!

Top Dog

[Fishy Jim]

Charge as much as you can. :D

Market forces and what you specialize in are going to determine what you can get away with putting on an invoice and actually perpetuating a good customer relationship. If you gouge one customer, you lose them and possibly everyone they encounter and tell of their experience with you. Being expensive isn't really a bad thing though. You need to produce work that fits with the price tag.

Now if you charge too little, you get a reputation of being the cheapest guy out there and that's equally bad. Some might take the gamble, but a lot of the guys looking at the bottom line with no other considerations aren't the people you want to be working for anyway.

I've found you get a lot of tire kickers when you're pitching your services on price alone. Since you're Navy (thank you, btw), I'm guessing your experience is with nukes? Find out what kind of outfits are out there that contract for similar types of work. Maybe doing plant shutdowns on other boilers would be a good match for your skills. I know some guys who do that type of stuff and they don't have enough time to spend all their money.

[Craig in Denver]

Since this is question has regional influences:

At the top left of the page is User CP. You can add your location there. It will show in the top right of each post, where mine says Colorado.

My Avatar and signature are a thanks to our Military. No, I didn't serve. :o

[Day Welding]

well, here in idaho, guys jsut welding water pipe, no special strength or anything, just leak proof are charging 50-65 an hour. Guys doing stainless and aluminum usually up it around 10 an hour. but the other comment left about not gouging your consumer is very improtant. dont know how that relates to your area but hope fully it helps.

[turbo38t]

Area depends on it. I charge $85/hour here in Jersey and it's my side business. Davewell, here in idaho, guys jsut welding water pipe, no special strength or anything, just leak proof are charging 50-65 an hour. Guys doing stainless and aluminum usually up it around 10 an hour. but the other comment left about not gouging your consumer is very improtant. dont know how that relates to your area but hope fully it helps.

[turboglenn]

There's a great thread on here soem where that was recent called "labor pricing ... or .. Welding what to charge" something like that

Anyway, they broke down a lot of good points.. I charge 40 an hour for working (fab, welding whatever)

Then if I'm going to their spot it's 25 extra bones just to go look at the job wether or not i do it

Then one thing i picked from a book that comes out hourly just as goos as 40 p/hr but sounds cheaper to the guys looking for a deal, but this is welding ONLY. (no fitting, filgin, NOTHING ELSE, just laying beads. These are 1.00 - 1.50 and inch depending on type of weld, back gassing etc..

These are cheap for aroud here but my shop was just lost the the space owner going bankrupt, so now i'm doing it out of my house and renting shop space across teh river in iowa :(

[Bodybagger]

Start out very reasonable and get your name out and some work people can look at. Then, take a long hard look at what it's costing you and what you think is fair. Then charge 300% of what you think is fair.:eek:

After expenses, overhead, etc, you will find this gives you about 10-20% profit!:confused:

I hope you don't think I'm joking!

[MMW]

Just something else to think about. Replacing your equipment down the road. If a new Trailblazer cost $4000 & it's average life span is 2000 hours it would cost $2 per hour plus maintenence to replace it. So from the time it is new you need to charge for this & plan on replacing it in the future. If you don't, then you will not have the money to keep upgrading your stuff. Do this for every piece of equipment so you know what it will cost just to have the use of it.

I see lots of people who think they are making good money by undercutting others but are still making more per hour than they would if working for someone else. This works well until you have to buy or replace equipment & then you realize your not making good money because of the expenses. There is a reason that legit businesses have to charge what they do.

[MMW]

Here is an example of things cutting into your profit. A job of 20 hours @ $60 per hour = $1200. Wow thats good money huh? Expenses = $60 for 20 pounds of rod, $52 for gasoline for engine drive, $82 for oxy/acet, $7 for grinding wheels /// $1200 minus $201 = $999 minus 30% for taxes leaves you with $699.30 divided by 20 hours is $34.96 per hour. This doesn't take into account any equipment cost, time spent maintaining equipment, running to the LWS for stuff, or time you spend doing paperwork. This is only showing your consumables. There are many costs involved that most people don't think about.

[Sberry]

Pricing is an art and a science, lots of factors to consider is right, including competitive pressure in your area. This is why niche and specialization are important. Consider piping for example, it weeds out the general welders, you have to compete with other spe******ts.

[MAC702]

You spamming us with the ED meds again, Cary?

When I was a kid there was a program for the Commodore 64 computer we had at school. It was about running a lemonade stand. It would tell you the weather and a bunch of other factors about where the lemonade stand was, what the current price was for lemons, etc., and ALL you had to do was figure out (yeah, GUESS) what to charge for a glass of lemonade on that particular day. Too high and you didn't sell many. Too low and you didn't make much profit. Every once in a while, you'd hit it just right.

The point is, knowing what to charge is really the KEY to making money in any business that doesn't rely on help from the government.

[FATFAB]

This question is why we have business schools?


You are asking a bunch of people you don't know to set your value?


I would think, that learning how one comes to set a price point a much more valuable bit of knowledge?

Or understanding how to calculate the cost per hour of providing "X" service.



Generally field work costs more so one mush charge more?


http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?t=14080&highlight=PRICING


Are you going to be a legitimate business and pay taxes and buy insurance?
Or are you just going to be a fly by night sneak?



The market I'm in I have to charge over $120.00 per hour for field work, and just under $100.00 for shop (steel) shop GTAW is over $150.00/$120.00.

If I were in the Southern US I could not charge as much.



How much is that "X" worth? What ever a willing seller and a willing buyer decide.

[TRC]

Hey TDW, you may need to be more specfic as to what you want to do as far as "moonlighting". If you want your customers to bring a Virginia class submarine to you for repairs the probability of that happening is not likely!@#$%^. In the past I have charged around $175/ HR for MIL-STD-248/278. Trying to be a little humorous- Ted

[Fishy Jim]

Mac, I thought the most valuable aspect of the lemonade stand game was realizing that your effort can remain at a set level and result in vastly different profit margins.

Think of walmart vs a specialty shop. Walmart's business model is to sell a zillion of something on a very thin margin (a little profit per sale x bunches of them = lots of money). So if wally world gets $1 on a given product, and they sell 1000 of them, they made $1000. Yay, 1K is a good deal of money right? How much effort was put forth to distribute those 1K items, and actually handle the transactions - a lot. So their actual profit took a great deal of resources and effort to achieve.

Now when you look at a specialty shop, they have higher prices, and sell less of the given item (due to some people saying "I can but it at walmart for less), but make substantially more per sale. So say they make $20 per unit, they only have to sell 50 of them to make the same $1K. Now having lowered your sales volume to 50 units, your expenses incurred in making that $1K have also been substantially reduced.

This is why being expensive is actually good for you. If you offer quality that those 50 people demand, that they can't get at your walmart competition (cheap junk for low low prices), you can make out better than they do on your bottom line with far less effort/investment put forth. Same profit, but far less time consumed and that lets you go to the park with your kids while your competition is buried in all the walmart type work and still only making as much as you did.

Charge too much, and you don't get your 50 sales.

[JTMcC]

There is some of the worst advise I've ever read in this thread.

There are a couple of good bits, the best one is that it's much better to learn how to price your service/product than ask a bunch of complete strangers on the web. It's not hard. Your local library is a good place to start.

Prices in the welding business are in general calculated based on cost, risk and desirability. They are not guessed, what "you think is fair" has nothing to do with it.

Once you learn to calculate your pricing it's a simple thing.

JTMcC.

[FATFAB]

There is some of the worst advise I've ever read in this thread.

There are a couple of good bits, the best one is that it's much better to learn how to price your service/product than ask a bunch of complete strangers on the web. It's not hard. Your local library is a good place to start.

Prices in the welding business are in general calculated based on cost, risk and desirability. They are not guessed, what "you think is fair" has nothing to do with it.

Once you learn to calculate your pricing it's a simple thing.

JTMcC.




There is the problem JMcC the learning.

No direct attack on the OP (or anyone for that matter). This internet and the lacking of teaching our young the practical use of rational thinking. Reason has left the USA and fairness has assumed its place.


This and other forums on the net provide us a place for us to communicate,
and many good ideas exchange hands. What is lacking is the ability of some of the posters to form fully thought out questions.

This thread is a great example, we had a good idea what the OP was getting at, but the question asked "I am curious as to what to charge is too simplistic.

Now Top Dog I understand you must start somewhere, gathering information on how business is conducted. Presumably you have taken part in numerous business transactions in your life, from buying a drink from a vending machine to the purchase and subsequent financing of an automobile. You have a basic understanding of the capitalist economic system. You are a skilled tradesman who has trained and labored for years perfecting your skills.


Why ask such a simplistic question? You must know that product "X" sell for a variety of price points and that many things affect the decision for that price point. At Disneyland we must expect a soda is going to cost more than at Costco three blocks a way. Or that steel manufactured in Pittsburgh and shipped to Alaska is going to cost more than in Seattle.


I get so frustrated with questions (here and other forums but also in person) asking for the best way too??? Or the best machine? NO best anything exists, no one price point (what to charge) exists.


How about you Mr. Dog help us out and show us how you came to a price per hour, show us you reasons, your math, and then ask us if what we think of your process of logic. To me that sounds more logical, and affords you more information.



Any way I hope you do well in your endeavors. Business ownership is , exhilarating, exasperating and enjoyable. If you have any specific welding business related questions I would be happy to help.

TJ

[griff01]

Topdog, don't let FatFab get you down. Remember, he is the same "expert" that does not know what contamination looks like in an aluminum Tig weld.


Griff

[MAC702]

There's no need to bring an old fight into this thread. I didn't see FATFAB's post as argumentative at all. He made good points along the same lines as JTMcC and some others.

Jim, I agree completely that no matter what your price is, your success will still depend on the local factors. But you did have the opportunity, indeed the expectation, to change your prices to reflect current market conditions. But no matter how cheaply you priced your lemonade when it was cold and rainy, you'd still sell more when it was hot. And if you were smart, you charged a lot more for it on those days, too. It was a rare try when the program would tell me that I charged the best price and made the most profit that was possible for that day.

[griff01]

There's no need to bring an old fight into this thread. I didn't see FATFAB's post as argumentative at all. He made good points along the same lines as JTMcC and some others.

Jim, I agree completely that no matter what your price is, your success will still depend on the local factors. But you did have the opportunity, indeed the expectation, to change your prices to reflect current market conditions. But no matter how cheaply you priced your lemonade when it was cold and rainy, you'd still sell more when it was hot. And if you were smart, you charged a lot more for it on those days, too. It was a rare try when the program would tell me that I charged the best price and made the most profit that was possible for that day.

I stand corrected on your first point. But fatfab was a little sharp toward TopDog.

Griff

[KB Fabrications]

But fatfab was a little sharp toward TopDog.



Would this have been better??? http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gif


http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/mutley.gif

[Sberry]

There are a couple of good bits, the best one is that it's much better to learn how to price your service/product than ask a bunch of complete strangers on the web. It's not hard. Your local library is a good place to start. I am not sure where I see any substantial bad advice here, there are some opinions and thats what this is for. Since this is all terrible please elaborate. I like this discussion and here like anywhere else or even reading at the library one could come to some poor conclusions or get poor advice, even from people charging for it, hence the financial situation of the day. What might one look up at the library that would be substantially useful?
I like Fishy's look at this, it can be even deeper. A good show was something called Biz Kids, a short PBS after school thing anyone in biz should see. It was simplistic but was a comparison of 2 lemonade stands with 2 different models and pricing structures.
Jim, I have a Walmart an hour away and in the nearest town only a Kmart. Prices in Kmart are 25% across the board higher on many things. They are willing to do less biz but get 900 for the same microwave that can be had for 60 at Wally. One thing about box stores, they don't always give the best deals on all the items, some they are willing to sell for less to bring the hordes thru the store and hoping they pick up extra on a few high profit items. Grocery stores the same way, selling a gallon of milk at cost hoping you pick up Natl Enquirer for 2$ they got for free. Changes the margins huge in those businesses.
A small contractor doesn't have the luxury on a couple ends of the game which could be expanded on but maybe later.
A lot of focus tends to be on customers and many miss the boat on pricing against the competitors which is really where the game is. Some have a knack for biz, an instinct and don't need to read but if you are asking this (agreed its too basic) question some reading is in order. I used to dread pricing now its one of the most fascinating aspects of business.
http://www.amazon.com/Trout-Partners-book-list/lm/2JH52DYUE0FW1 These are the must reads, very simple. Marketing Warfare, Positioning and the 22 laws (the commandments), you are wasting your time in biz if you don't read these simple books.

[Bodybagger]

What's "fair" has everything to do with it.

Fair is when you are "adequately compensated" for your labor and materials and your customer has received a "quality product that is worth the price they paid."

"Fair" in this context is a mutually beneficial transaction for all involved, including potential competitiors. This is not the same context in which a whining kid cries "that's not fair!", so don't confuse the two.

If your business deals are not mutually beneficial, it will catch up to you someday. Do charity work and you will go broke (while forcing competitors to charge less than they should). Rip people off and your profit will be short lived because nobody will deal with you anymore.

Why did I recommend that you take what you think is "fair" and triple it? Because going into business, everyone underestimates the true cost of doing business. Add taxes, insurance, advertising, losses due to theft, equipment breakdowns, and other overhead and you tripling what you thought was fair really isn't that far off.

But hey, we don't know what we're talking about. Our advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. Don't take my word for it. Spend 6 years in college paying tuition to get a masters in business administration so you'll know exactly what to charge driving a welding truck around. Don't forget to add 40 grand of student loans to your overhead.$$$$$$$

[Fishy Jim]

I don't know of any relation to that guy, but I'm not sure. :D

I intentionally didn't expound too much on the whole lemonade stand scenario, because for most of us, the business model doesn't translate well to our respective industries. Wally world doesn't either, but that just illustrated a point about what role margins can have on how successful you really are. Being busy but not profitable is bad, and possibly worse than not being busy (variable expenses rise with work, where fixed expenses remain the same without work).

Retail mark-up is generally 100% over acquisition price (not directly related to actual "cost" as distribution and warehousing come into play on the store's end of the transaction from the vendor). Walmart also expects YOU to pay for shipping it to their nearest distribution center, but they're nice enough to operate their own trucking company that will cut you a little better rate to pick it up off your dock and deliver it to theirs. They're so nice like that huh? :rolleyes: Selling in walmart can be a great achievement in sales volume, but you might not make any money in the end (there was a show on this a few months back tracking entrepreneurs trying to get their stuff on wally's shelves). Why are you in business? If I wanted to give away my work, I'd declare myself a charity. ;)

I think the similarities between our industries and the retail sector are most comparable in marketing, but there again the similarities don't translate other than the respective intent (gain more business).

[Sberry]

but that just illustrated a point about what role margins can have on how successful you really are. Being busy but not profitable is bad, and possibly worse than not being busy (variable expenses rise with work, where fixed expenses remain the same without work). I will buy that, reason to have a regular job.
Retail mark-up is generally 100% over acquisition price Depending on product of course, some as high as 300%, bottled water and individual soda pops in convenience stores and Pizza Hut come to mind where the actual ingredients are about 10% of the retail price. Cup of coffee in a C store too, nickle for the cup, nickle for the lid and sale price of 1.25 of course not including overhead and labor.

[JTMcC]

I am not sure where I see any substantial bad advice here, there are some opinions and thats what this is for. Since this is all terrible please elaborate. .


"Since this all terrible please elaborate"??????
Go read it again, I said it's some real bad advise, and a bit of good....how do you read what I wrote and get to "all terrible"? You can't if you have a bit of reading comprehension. You're putting a ton of spin on what I say and you kinow it. I don't let my 4 and 6 year olds twist things around that much.

There's a ton of bad advise. It's really this simple:

A guy can go on the net and ask for the answer to a simple math problem, say what is "128 divided by 14"?

He'll get several answers, some right, some wrong, some unrelated to the question, some slightly related. That's the nature of the internet. The conversation will morph into something completely different fairly quickly.

But our questioner would be so much better off if he were to learn to do the simple math problem himself, and then he'll never have to ask again. Because the math problem is constantly changing in small and sometimes large ways. If he learns to solve the problem: 128 divided by 14, he'll be prepared when the problem becomes 2487.59 divided by 52.7.

If you don't understand how the rate is determined, you'r shooting in the dark and not pricing your service correctly. When I kicked off my little business in 1992, my local library (in a small rural town) had several books that were very helpfull to me, specially ones aimed at small to mid size construction contractors. By that time I'd sucked up quite a bit of knowledge from comanies I'd worked for as well on bidding work, determining my costs, factoring in risk and desirability.

It boils down to a simple set of numbers and a few minutes on a calculator to deternime a cost for your work, regardless of the circumstances. No theory here, just experience I've gathered by paying very close attention when I was helping price/bid work for companies that are a ton bigger than mine will ever be. And have used in my small corner of the welding world.

I've watched a lot more companies go under due to undercharging than to charging too much but in both cases they were pulling numbers out of the air, not calculating their actual costs. People who are used to working for wages will often see a large cash flow and assume they are making it big, but find themselfs several months or years later they are in bankruptcy.

I'm completely done now...so I return you to your normal programing. Feel free to continue dissecting the wally world business model as if it actually applied here.

JTMcC:)

[MAC702]

...I've watched a lot more companies go under due to undercharging than to charging too much...

Good point. And those that did the former probably had guys working their butts off for that reward. Charge too much and you can at least take a few days off while waiting for work and enjoy it. I know which way I'd rather err.

[Sberry]

In reality we would agree on more things than not. But I do respond to the general tone that no one on the internet knows anything, maybe you don't mean it that way but it comes off like it. I've watched a lot more companies go under due to undercharging than to charging too much but in both cases they were pulling numbers out of the air, not calculating their actual costs. People who are used to working for wages will often see a large cash flow and assume they are making it big, but find themselves several months or years later they are in bankruptcy Now that is a valuable contribution and agree with that completely. Feel free to continue dissecting the wally world business model as if it actually applied here. In some respects it does apply or at least looking at other businesses, its just good observation, no one is saying anyone should copy them but it doesn't hurt to know how they work. One reason is to make sure we avoid that line of thinking. Realize we ain't Wally and don't try to act like them. It boils down to a simple set of numbers and a few minutes on a calculator to determine a cost for your work, regardless of the circumstances. No theory here, just experience I've gathered by paying very close attention when I was helping price/bid work for companies that are a ton bigger than mine will ever be. And have used in my small corner of the welding world. Again good point, we are not saying not to do homework, getting some feedback here is part of it. You bring up something I elude to earlier, some of this is more instinctual for some than others, you did some things right including going into a field where you had a good pulse feel and a lot of experience and a chance to observe a lot of models in practice.
This guy can do the work but never dealt in the world, maybe he know how to find a job, maybe not, a big factor. Maybe he has contacts thru the service we don't know about but he is going to feel the general tone that he is likely to be under priced in the beginning.
Myself, I am digging out of a hole due to the previous generation making pricing decisions and assumptions on general beliefs that had no real research beyond finding out how much some other loser was charging and trying to compete with that. Its taken some effort to put myself in at least the assumed leadership in my market where they are following my pricing vs the other way around and the internal resistance to this is my biggest obstacle. Its an awakening to come to the realization that despite 50 yrs in this biz and surviving it my Dad don't know sheet about business and is hesitant to make changes even when the obvious is at the door. Most requiring little or no effort, running simple spread sheets would have been a help, lots of focus on production, none on marketing/pricing and other numbers. Mac says it all with this. Good point. And those that did the former probably had guys working their butts off for that reward. Charge too much and you can at least take a few days off while waiting for work and enjoy it. I know which way I'd rather err. Got a couple of them in the family tree that follow this theory. Just got to be busy no matter what it costs.

[JTMcC]

Good point. And those that did the former probably had guys working their butts off for that reward. Charge too much and you can at least take a few days off while waiting for work and enjoy it. I know which way I'd rather err.



I said I was done....but I've got to add this, A friend of mine not in the welding business but heavy equipment repair started his own company several years ago. This guy is very competent in his field, I've worked for very sharp old timer supperintendants who claimed he was the best they ever seen. He is a honest and hard working man.
He started out with one service truck plus a one ton and two guys. His work load was great and within a year he had 5 service trucks (meduim duty w/crane/welding machine/ect, what we used to call 2 tons), several one tons, a lube truck, a water truck, a large amount of rented shop space and many employees. I told him from day one that he wasn't charging enought per hour and his response was allways this," I'm making nothing but money John".
Cash flow doesn't automatically translate into personal income. I've heard this from a lot of people, "I'm billing out $XXXXX dollars per month, I HAVE to be making money". My friend was billing around $25,000 per week, and slowly going broke because he didn't know the actual cost of doing that amount of work. This sounds simple but it can be missed easily if you don't know your numbers intimately.
Three years later I call up my friend (he's in his mid 50's) and he's shut down the business, trying to not lose everything he has accomplished in a lifetime of work, and wondering how in the world he will ever be able to retire.

Bottom line is this:
1) KNOW (don't guess) your costs (and they change day to day, certainly don't trust an accountant to do this work for you, know it yourself, you own the business, you have everything you own at risk, to the accountant you are just one of many customers, no one will ever have the investment in your business you have).
2) Don't confuse cash flow with personal income. The man writting the invoices had better understand the cost of each job. Read the statistics for small business' in the U.S. How many make it past 10 years without going under?

The greatest most capable welder in the universe can lose his shirt over time if he doesn't have a solid real world grip on these critical numbers.

Ok, I'm really done this time. The part timers can now feel free to bash away at my take.

JTMcC;)

[Sberry]

There is nothing to bash with that. I had a Bud in the trucking biz, the checks looked good coming in but same deal. His wife took over the books when he got married and put a stop to it. Small farmers and milk checks the same way. My mechanic Bud, worked like a maniac for long time doing anything and everything, finally figured out to take the easy stuff he did well and makes twice part time he ever did full.

[Fishy Jim]

John, what you apparently missed in the use of walmart as an example, is that they sell on small margins with tremendous volume which would make it impossible for a smaller operation to exist. It's tangible, real world, big business success that will bankrupt a small outfit if imitated. I see it as a universal starting point of reference (aka, a visualization), not something to emulate.

I used it to make a point, just like you used your friend's business to make a point. Sorry I didn't spell it out more. I kind of expect the reader to have the ability to comprehend a comparative example. However, I fully admitted that their model doesn't translate well to "ours."

I happen to be a specialty manufacturer who does not sell through a middleman, so the retail model is closer to mine than it would be to yours. I set prices based on market forces, and determine whether or not a given product is viable based on how much profit is left after all expenses have been accounted. As such, there are things I defer to other suppliers because they're not profitable for me to produce.

[FATFAB]

At this point I would like to hear from the OP Top Dog.

Griff I don't see how you helped at all?

The reason I posted all that I did was to hopefully open the eyes fully of someone who is now where I was several years ago. It is an intimidating idea to give up a steady income with limited responsibilities, to sole proprietorship. The rewards are great so are the risks. Not all of are to be business owners.

[Sberry]

Jim, Probably like you I am super sensitive to pricing. I do the majority of the purchasing so I know what stuff costs. My LWS has lost some business to this. I buy mostly off the shelf these days from box stores and are there enough I can shop between them, I was there one wanted 19$ a roll for wire while the next was 10 so I make 19$ for no or little effort on 2 rolls I need for a job next week. Rods, near half the LWS.
I lean on my auto parts store, I give up some price but they are good and have great service but if I am thinking of engine work I shop, same gasket set they want 90 for is 20, they markup engine parts. Even one off shipping makes it only 30% the cost and each piece adds up to savings for one flat ship rate so I toss in a timing chain set for 15 they want 45 for I am beating up on markups when I can.
There are certainly other considerations besides price but its a bigger factor all the time as the availability increases for most products. Margins are a lot higher than most people think in many cases, a lot of business stay in the world because most people still don't shop.

[Sberry]

Fat, you should love this conversation, already helping future competitors to keep the prices up. In my biz I work at going round and driving prices. I dont work much on the customers but either try to get my competitors to raise or drive them out of the business if they are being slugs. An example might be that we wont supply wholesale unless they sell at our retail price. We even provide some spread sheets to these people on how to improve their margins.

[moya034]

Fat, you should love this conversation, already helping future competitors to keep the prices up. In my biz I work at going round and driving prices. I dont work much on the customers but either try to get my competitors to raise or drive them out of the business if they are being slugs. An example might be that we wont supply wholesale unless they sell at our retail price. We even provide some spread sheets to these people on how to improve their margins.

This is free market capitalism at its finest. I love this country. Some might call it collusion, I call it good business. :D

[Sberry]

Reverse engineering, instead of competing with them on price I want to create a reason for them to follow a price increase. Reverse the Walmart logic. I am willing to take a loss of sales to increase prices= less work to get the same money while reducing some overhead do to less work. So far increases haven't effected sales, so we must still be below value.
The Ford garage has followed this to a T. In 25 years no added staff, no new service bays, no additions besides showroom. As soon as the service bays fill they raise the rates, they don't put on additional mechanics to increased demand, when they got more than they can do the price goes up.

[Sberry]

It isn't really collusion but convincing them its in their best financial interests. Here is an example, my Dad is the farmer, its what he does well. Due to a manpower shortage I send him and a new guy to a market we are a leader in. He spots an out of town competitor at 3.50 so he discards the signs and the instruction to sell at 4$. I would have walked over to the other guy and at least make the pitch for a raise in a market we were both going to sell out completely in but he folds it and scores some change to give back and both farmers leave early sold out with 220$ less in their pocket for the mornings work.
10 yrs ago I had to compare, now when I come thru all the rest of the vendors ask me,,,,,, how much you are charging? What benefit could I have to get less than the public will pay? I did fix it, I sent one of my ramrods back next time and got it moving again. If my competitors raise it allows me to raise, we all do better.
Last year was a problem, we had good conditions but fear ruled the day. I had really made the effort and waited until the stars align and then everyone panic and we miss a huge opportunity to capitalize, now this year weather was an issue and production was down, some big increases helped but I would have been able to coast if I would have put the foot down some time ago. I am fighting a battle I should have fought 10 yrs ago.
I am really regretting not getting involved in the piping industry, I always knew I should but just had enough going on that sidelined my efforts from that and now that things are good there I would be a newcomer. I don't know enough about it to be effective, no contacts or really even know anyone in the biz, I used to keep in the loop a little on some things but this has consumed my time and energy. Given some mentor-ship I could come up on the curve pretty fast but I don't have that option close at hand.

[usmcruz]

This reminds me of my thread. You know what the problem is, noone here can talk turkey without getting into some kind of argument. How about we just delete all the welding cost threads from existence!:p:D.

[Fishy Jim]

I think controlling your variable expenses is the key to making it. I don't buy new very much, because I can eliminate a lot of my depreciation in buying something someone else thought they needed (surplus) or eventually couldn't afford (liquidation).

Making your money stretch has the same effect as making more sales, only with conservation of cash outlay, you don't have to sweat to make up the difference. Call it being frugal, thrifty, or outright cheap - but the effect remains the same. If I can buy what I'm after for a few bucks less, that means I don't have to earn a few bucks more to end up in the same position at the end of the day.

Now this isn't to say I agree with the box store mentality of driving prices so low no one can compete with them, because I don't. I'm a firm believer in small businesses and I make it a point to send some money to my LWS on some higher margin items (plasma consumables, welding hose, leads cable) because I don't want all my eggs in one basket. Without my LWS, the other welding suppliers have a monopoly (which is pretty close to being run in collusion right now as it is). My guy is a LLC who has a small crew and does business the old fashioned way - with trust and mutual benefit on every transaction. I'll pay a little extra to keep his doors open. On some things, the price difference is too great from where he can sell at vs where I can buy at, and he respects that I'm going to serve my bottom line before I serve his. He knows exactly where I'm coming from when I do it too - because he faces the same decisions every day.

[griff01]

At this point I would like to hear from the OP Top Dog.

Griff I don't see how you helped at all?

The reason I posted all that I did was to hopefully open the eyes fully of someone who is now where I was several years ago. It is an intimidating idea to give up a steady income with limited responsibilities, to sole proprietorship. The rewards are great so are the risks. Not all of are to be business owners.

You did not need to put him down. And it was a little payback towards you for TRYING to put me down when you said there was no contamination in the "cracked aluminum weld" discussion. Said weld was full of contamination!!

Griff

[FATFAB]

So you are just a little school boy getting even? Good hope you "feel" better for your effort.

Shame I didn't see what you did in some photo of some never to be seen again scrap aluminum.

So I am properly spanked, ouch! Thank you, may I have another master?


Golly I feel so grade school all over. :D

Next time we'll have group hugs.:eek:

[griff01]

So you are just a little school boy getting even? Good hope you "feel" better for your effort.

Shame I didn't see what you did in some photo of some never to be seen again scrap aluminum.

So I am properly spanked, ouch! Thank you, may I have another master?


Golly I feel so grade school all over. :D

Next time we'll have group hugs.:eek:

No, I actually do not feel better. Everytime I argue with someone like you I fall to your level and then I cannot win as I don't have experience down there.
As to the aluminum thread, I don't think it was scrap, it was a piece the guy was working on and needed help, not jabs from you.

Bye

Griff

[JTMcC]

This reminds me of my thread. You know what the problem is, noone here can talk turkey without getting into some kind of argument. How about we just delete all the welding cost threads from existence!:p:D.


This is nothing like "your thread", nothing.
This is an interesting discussion amoung people who dissagree on points, a simple spirited discussion.

"Your thread", at least all i remember of it, was you threatening people that you'd track them down and hurt them.
Oh wow.
And your justification for behaving like a retarded 10 year old is that you "wore the uniform of your country". Well here's a news flash Einstien, me, and a whole bunch (tens of millions) of other men and women here have served their country with pride and honor, and continue on our daily lives as proud Americans without making an *** of ourselves every time we post on the net.
And certainly without posting in every commenty we make that we "served", that we'll "take a bullet".
Good grief, you're a drama queen.
I've spent my entire life around military men, I was raised by a 10th SF troop, when I was a kid every adult in my Boy Scout's of America troop was a combat veteran, I did "my bit" to the best of my ability in the United States Army.
Give it a rest, it's a welding forum, many have served, "YOU" are just not thet special dude.
And if you intend to threaten to track me down, my contact info is all over the net.
Grow up.

JTMcC.

[FATFAB]

No, I actually do not feel better. Everytime I argue with someone like you I fall to your level and then I cannot win as I don't have experience down there.
As to the aluminum thread, I don't think it was scrap, it was a piece the guy was working on and needed help, not jabs from you.

Bye

Griff
I didn't know we were arguing?

In that case you.... piece of ---- useless----- !!!!!!


So hijacking some other thread is going to help the guy with the aluminum problem? Who is jabbing at who now???


What is there to win , besides proving your immaturity? Oh that if someone has a thought, idea, comment, or opinion it should be cleared through you?


Give it up Griff, you are out of line, off topic, and not ready for the big sand box yet.

[FATFAB]

This is nothing like "your thread", nothing.
This is an interesting discussion amoung people who dissagree on points, a simple spirited discussion.

"Your thread", at least all i remember of it, was you threatening people that you'd track them down and hurt them.
Oh wow.
And your justification for behaving like a retarded 10 year old is that you "wore the uniform of your country". Well here's a news flash Einstien, me, and a whole bunch (tens of millions) of other men and women here have served their country with pride and honor, and continue on our daily lives as proud Americans without making an *** of ourselves every time we post on the net.
And certainly without posting in every commenty we make that we "served", that we'll "take a bullet".
Good grief, you're a drama queen.
I've spent my entire life around military men, I was raised by a 10th SF troop, when I was a kid every adult in my Boy Scout's of America troop was a combat veteran, I did "my bit" to the best of my ability in the United States Army.
Give it a rest, it's a welding forum, many have served, "YOU" are just not thet special dude.
And if you intend to threaten to track me down, my contact info is all over the net.
Grow up.

JTMcC.

Well said Sir... or did you work while serving... lol none the less thank you.

[JTMcC]

Well said Sir... or did you work while serving... lol none the less thank you.



LOL, as me Dear Old Dad (MSGT. Ret.) used to say, "don't call me sir, my parents were married"!


JTMcC;)

[KB Fabrications]

This is nothing like "your thread", nothing.
This is an interesting discussion amoung people who dissagree on points, a simple spirited discussion.

"Your thread", at least all i remember of it, was you threatening people that you'd track them down and hurt them.
Oh wow.
And your justification for behaving like a retarded 10 year old is that you "wore the uniform of your country". Well here's a news flash Einstien, me, and a whole bunch (tens of millions) of other men and women here have served their country with pride and honor, and continue on our daily lives as proud Americans without making an *** of ourselves every time we post on the net.
And certainly without posting in every commenty we make that we "served", that we'll "take a bullet".
Good grief, you're a drama queen.
I've spent my entire life around military men, I was raised by a 10th SF troop, when I was a kid every adult in my Boy Scout's of America troop was a combat veteran, I did "my bit" to the best of my ability in the United States Army.
Give it a rest, it's a welding forum, many have served, "YOU" are just not thet special dude.
And if you intend to threaten to track me down, my contact info is all over the net.
Grow up.

JTMcC.
OMG!!!!!http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/wow.gifhttp://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/wow.gifhttp://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/wow.gif
You're gonna offend his tender sensibilities!!!!!

Ok everyone, just keep thinking http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gif

[usmcruz]

You know, I did post something to counter your rediculous and childish comeback, but although it was very funny to the point I spit beer out of my nose, I had to delete it, because It would of caused a level of chaos like a pack of rednecks let loose in a corn dog factory. I will be the better man, and refrain from further posting in this thread.LOL

[usmcruz]

Sometime you just gotta smile :rolleyes::D

[JTMcC]

Well since you deleted your masterpiece, I'll put it back up for the world to see:





Dear JTMcC,

usmcruz has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Welding Prices $$$$$$$ - in the Welding Discussions forum of Miller Welding Discussion Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?t=14261&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by JTMcC)---
This is nothing like "your thread", nothing.
This is an interesting discussion amoung people who dissagree on points, a simple spirited discussion.

"Your thread", at least all i remember of it, was you threatening people that you'd track them down and hurt them.
Oh wow.
And your justification for behaving like a retarded 10 year old is that you "wore the uniform of your country". Well here's a news flash Einstien, me, and a whole bunch (tens of millions) of other men and women here have served their country with pride and honor, and continue on our daily lives as proud Americans without making an *** of ourselves every time we post on the net.
And certainly without posting in every commenty we make that we "served", that we'll "take a bullet".
Good grief, you're a drama queen.
I've spent my entire life around military men, I was raised by a 10th SF troop, when I was a kid every adult in my Boy Scout's of America troop was a combat veteran, I did "my bit" to the best of my ability in the United States Army.
Give it a rest, it's a welding forum, many have served, "YOU" are just not thet special dude.
And if you intend to threaten to track me down, my contact info is all over the net.
Grow up.

JTMcC.
---End Quote---

My momma say's I'm special!:D. Your about as ignant as they come, and I will not be baited by some childish posts such as yours. Although If I were you, I would stop posting such posts, as you make yourself look like some high school kid mad as his parents, and save whatever credibility that you have left, if there is any left. I live in Jax fl, over on NAS Jax, so there now my info is on the net there buddy. I got nothing to hide!;)
***************


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Miller Welding Discussion Forums

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[griff01]

I didn't know we were arguing?

In that case you.... piece of ---- useless----- !!!!!!


So hijacking some other thread is going to help the guy with the aluminum problem? Who is jabbing at who now???


What is there to win , besides proving your immaturity? Oh that if someone has a thought, idea, comment, or opinion it should be cleared through you?


Give it up Griff, you are out of line, off topic, and not ready for the big sand box yet.


You missed that one too. I never said anything like that.
I left the sandbox many years ago.


Bye
Griff

[FATFAB]

You missed that one too. I never said anything like that.
I left the sandbox many years ago.


Bye
Griff

Keep beating that horse, just cause it aint breathing don't mean its dead!:D

[usmcruz]

Well since you deleted your masterpiece, I'll put it back up for the world to see:

My momma say's I'm special. Your about as ignant as they come, and I will not be baited by some childish posts such as yours. Although If I were you, I would stop posting such posts, as you make yourself look like some high school kid mad as his parents, and save whatever credibility that you have left, if there is any left. I live in Jax fl, over on NAS Jax, so there now my info is on the net there buddy. I got nothing to hide


Isn't it beautiful, a work of art I would say!. I never thought Id be quoting myself!:D;):D:). I think I maxed out the number of smiley's I can use. Like dealing with children, lol.