Need some help w/ alum mig

[josterbauer]

I am new to the forum, long time reader. I currently switched my 110 v mig to weld on alum. I can weld steel just fine, however alum different story. I tried welding on my alum boat tonight, and it looks like horse turds on the boat. The weld is not sticking to the boat and just splattering off. It is not even melting the metal on the boat. I need some advice on how to make this work. Cleaned the metal very well, and did everything that everyone talks about on the forums, I just need to know what is going on with my welder-welding. Please help.

[duaneb55]

josterbauer, Welcome to the forum.

First of all, are you using 100% argon? C25 used for carbon steel is a big no no on aluminum.

Second, it sounds as if you're running too cold. You need to run hotter (and faster) with Aluminum than you would for CS.

Third, check out this video from this site which should answer most of your questions. http://www.millerwelds.com/swf/flv/flashvid.html?swf=MIG_Aluminum_Welding.swf&w=320&h=240&v=8

Duane

[Broccoli1]

my 110 v mig to weld on alum.

Could be the culprit right there:)

110/120v machines limited to rather thin stock AL.

What thickness we talkin' about on an Aloominum boat?

[Broccoli1]

and Photos would help.

[josterbauer]

Yes, I am using 100% argon. I have tried the higher setting on the voltage, and it just fizzes and blows the wire all over the place. I am actually using an sp100 lincoln welder, not the miller. I do not have a small miller. Any advice will surely help. Do I need to turn up the voltage and the wire speed as well, or do you use a high voltage, and a med wire speed? Let me know. Thanks in advance.

[josterbauer]

The alum thickness is a .102 thickness on the material. As for photo's, just looks like a pile of melted plastic beads.

[StillBoostin]

josterbauer, Welcome to the forum.

First of all, are you using 100% argon? C25 used for carbon steel is a big no no on aluminum.

Second, it sounds as if you're running too cold. You need to run hotter (and faster) with Aluminum than you would for CS.

Third, check out this video from this site which should answer most of your questions. http://www.millerwelds.com/swf/flv/flashvid.html?swf=MIG_Aluminum_Welding.swf&w=320&h=240&v=8

Duane

Great info. Torch angle is key and a very fast travel speed. Welding Al is much different then Steel. Use a heat gun ti pre-heat your material, prep and clean with an Al cleaner. Run her hot and fast with about a 10-15 degree angle and us the push technique. Here is an old pic of my first attempt on my MM180 with the Spoolmate 100. 1/8" Al.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q72/stillboostin/Welding%20Equipmnent/P5011853-1.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q72/stillboostin/Welding%20Equipmnent/P5011852.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q72/stillboostin/Welding%20Equipmnent/P5011851.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q72/stillboostin/Welding%20Equipmnent/P4161780.jpg


James

[StillBoostin]

One more pic:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q72/stillboostin/Welding%20Equipmnent/P4161777.jpg


James

[josterbauer]

That looks good compared to what I have been creating.

[Broccoli1]

Yes, I am using 100% argon. I have tried the higher setting on the voltage, and it just fizzes and blows the wire all over the place. I am actually using an sp100 lincoln welder, not the miller. I do not have a small miller. Any advice will surely help. Do I need to turn up the voltage and the wire speed as well, or do you use a high voltage, and a med wire speed? Let me know. Thanks in advance.

Most likely you will have the Voltage at D and the wire speed up there around 8,9,10

[duaneb55]

Yes, I am using 100% argon. I have tried the higher setting on the voltage, and it just fizzes and blows the wire all over the place. I am actually using an sp100 lincoln welder, not the miller. I do not have a small miller. Any advice will surely help. Do I need to turn up the voltage and the wire speed as well, or do you use a high voltage, and a med wire speed? Let me know. Thanks in advance.

Lincoln, Miller or ?? the same basic rules will apply. I didn't point out some of the critical tips that StillBoostin shared as they're covered in the video (did you view it yet?).

Wire speed and voltage settings will obviously vary with material thickness so for starters try running the wire speed at mid-point and adjust your voltage up or down in small increments to get the results demonstrated in the video. You should also review your unit manual for any recommended settings for the material thickness.

Keep us posted.

[duaneb55]

Yes, I am using 100% argon. I have tried the higher setting on the voltage, and it just fizzes and blows the wire all over the place. I am actually using an sp100 lincoln welder, not the miller. I do not have a small miller. Any advice will surely help. Do I need to turn up the voltage and the wire speed as well, or do you use a high voltage, and a med wire speed? Let me know. Thanks in advance.

Go with the settings Brocolli1 suggested for starters as he's familiar with your machine - I'm not.:)

[Broccoli1]

Go with the settings Brocolli1 suggested for starters as he's familiar with your machine - I'm not.:)

Kinda jumped the gun as that was for a tapped machine- Thought the Sp100 was similar to the 100HD.:(

Looks like the Sp100 has Continuous Voltage selection and the manual does not provide any suggested settings for AL.

but aloominum does take some juice so I figger he'll still need to be in the upper Voltage selection as well as for a pretty fast wire speed.

[Laiky]

correct me if i'm way off here. The upper limit for a 110 machine on steel is about 1/8". He is doing .100" alluminum, and a large piece too (boat hull??). I don't think you will have the power available to do the job, sounds like your not melting into the base metal. What type of joint config? is it on the hull? post some pics of the area to be welded and your results.

[cruizer]

I think its more of a case of attempting to run too big of a consumable wire, never melt right if he's going larger than 023 on a really light duty machine

[Goodhand]

The alum thickness is a .102 thickness on the material. As for photo's, just looks like a pile of melted plastic beads.

Like Ed suggested, photos are always helpful for us when we try to offer help.
I have just recently learned to weld aluminum with my 120 volt Century, both globular transfer and spray transfer. I have the argon gas supplied at 20 cfh. The settings I use for globular transfer on 0.08" irrigation pipe are 50% voltage and 5/8 speed. I suspect globular transfer would be useful in your application, but we don't know what you are welding, other than your boat.

Are you patching a slit, or other defect?
Are you welding in the horizontal position?
Have you cleaned with a stainless steel brush?
What are the actual settings you are using for voltage and speed?
What wire (5356?) and diameter are you using?
How far is the ground clamp from the weld area?

[Goodhand]

correct me if i'm way off here. The upper limit for a 110 machine on steel is about 1/8". He is doing .100" alluminum, and a large piece too (boat hull??). I don't think you will have the power available to do the job, sounds like your not melting into the base metal. What type of joint config? is it on the hull? post some pics of the area to be welded and your results.

I weld 3/16", 1/4", and on occasion 3/8" steel with my 120 volt Century mig. Outcome depends on proper prep work before the arc is struck (same as in s(e)x), and technique (superior skill & cunning). Don't think power is the problem with his application, more like operator error. I, initially, fell into that hole, since aluminum is so much different. Hopefully, he'll get on track with a bit more practice, then come back with some photos of his success.

[SundownIII]

That's one heck of a 120v mig you got there.

Spray transfer???? More like blowing smoke up a wind tunnel.

OP,

Mig welding aluminum presents a totally different set of challenges than does steel.

My first reaction is you're trying the wrong process (mig vs tig) and the machine you have is not the right one for the job.

Thin (.10) aluminum is tough, even for an experienced welder, and your machine makes it even more of a challenge. Not saying it can't be done, but suspect you'd be better off finding someone who could tig it for you.

Photos would help us give better advice.

[Goodhand]

That's one heck of a 120v mig you got there.

Spray transfer???? More like blowing smoke up a wind tunnel.
vice.

Funny how one that thinks he knows all of the answers will dis the achievements of someone else, even though he has never seen the results. Methinks this is a definition of ignorance.

Farmers/ranchers repair thin (0.08") aluminum irrigation pipe every day with their mig machines. No need for tig, here.

[SundownIII]

Goodhand,

When I read posts such as your's, I just shake my head and say, "Where the He11 is this guy coming from".

I won't take the time to fully disect your comments but here are a couple.

I weld 3/8" with my 120V mig. You may think you're properly welding 3/8" material with a 120v mig (hardwire & C25). You're NOT. No amount of prep or "superior skill and cunning" is going to make up for the inadequacies of that machine. In a previous posting you mentioned that you welded up a drawbar for your trailer using 3/8" material and your 120v mig. Comments like this scare the bejebas out of those of us who've been around awhile. I have a basic premise here. "If it goes down the highway, it doesn't need to be welded with a 120v machine".

You want to elaborate on how you got a 120v mig to spray. Aluminum with 100%Argon I presume. Using 4043 or 5356 wire? Any "hot gas" mix?

Globular transfer is "THE LAST THING" the OP needs for this application. Might as well stand back and shoot aluminum bb's at the crack.

Maybe you don't realize how ridiculous your post sounds to a guy who works with aluminum/marine applications every day.

The reason I didn't provide more information to the OP was because it didn't seem he had the background or equipment to be taking on the job. On a boat if the aluminum split, there's a reason for it. Repair has got to be "stronger than the original" to insure that it doesn't just split again.

Just my .02.

[Goodhand]

Goodhand,

When I read posts such as your's, I just shake my head and say, "Where the He11 is this guy coming from".

I won't take the time to fully disect your comments but here are a couple.

I weld 3/8" with my 120V mig. You may think you're properly welding 3/8" material with a 120v mig (hardwire & C25). You're NOT. No amount of prep or "superior skill and cunning" is going to make up for the inadequacies of that machine. In a previous posting you mentioned that you welded up a drawbar for your trailer using 3/8" material and your 120v mig. Comments like this scare the bejebas out of those of us who've been around awhile. I have a basic premise here.

You want to elaborate on how you got a 120v mig to spray. Aluminum with 100%Argon I presume. Using 4043 or 5356 wire? Any "hot gas" mix?

Globular transfer is "THE LAST THING" the OP needs for this application. Might as well stand back and shoot aluminum bb's at the crack.

Maybe you don't realize how ridiculous your post sounds to a guy who works with aluminum/marine applications every day.

The reason I didn't provide more information to the OP was because it didn't seem he had the background or equipment to be taking on the job. On a boat if the aluminum split, there's a reason for it. Repair has got to be "stronger than the original" to insure that it doesn't just split again.

Just my .02.

Yup... you have once again confirmed that you are in a rut, and cannot think "out of the box." You think your way is THE way. You responded to a guy, posting here for help, by telling him he should just take his boat to someone who could tig it. I'm surprised you didn't tell him to buy a new boat. Looks to me like he has a boat in need of repair, has equipment to do the job, and wants to learn how. Then, you come along and tell him he can't.

BTW... I undertake my projects with thoughtful planning, and full consideration for the demands of the metal and fabrication, not on platitudes, such as, "If it goes down the highway, it doesn't need to be welded with a 120v machine". It appears you have never taken the time to learn how to use a 120 volt machine.

That my fabricating a tow bar scares you without your ever having seen it and knowing how it was built reveals loads about your poor judgement. I suppose you are afraid of ghosts, too. Boo!

I suppose you think the others, who have posted info to try to help this guy, don't know what they are doing, either. Also, I suppose I'll now have to tell my farmer/rancher friends that they can't weld their irrigation pipes with their migs anymore... that they'll all have to purchase tig machines.

$0.02 would be overcharging for your advice.

[josterbauer]

Here are the crappy welds that I have attempted in practice with settings. Let the advice begin, tell me what I am doing wrong. Thanks in advance. I am for warning you on the non quality welds. Just need some help here.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/JOSTERBAUER/101_0390-1.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/JOSTERBAUER/101_0392-1.jpg

[Clavacle]

are you welding with the correct polarity? It should be DCEP. Something is definitely not set right in your set up. Hope you get some better results soon. Good luck.

[josterbauer]

I have it set to positive polarity on the welder. What is it supposed to be. I have used the negative for flux core welding.

[SinGear]

Here is an old pic of my first attempt on my MM180 with the Spoolmate 100. 1/8" Al.


James, are you kidding me, your first attempt? Ok you melt by trade don't you? I have to give you credit your first attempt kick the he11 outta mine, pretty nice lookin beads.

[Goodhand]

I have it set to positive polarity on the welder. What is it supposed to be. I have used the negative for flux core welding.

Okay, you've provided some photos; that does help a bit. Now, since we can't see what you are doing in your shop, it would be helpful if you would provide us with some more information. Would you mind referring back to post #16 and supply the requested info. Thanks.

BTW... when you say you cleaned the area to be welded, just how did you accomplish that?
Did you buff the area with a stainless steel brush? It may be just poor lighting, but I don't see brush marks on your practice strip.

[josterbauer]

I did clean it with a brush, I guess I do not know if it is SS. Does the SS make that much of a difference?
As far a post 16-


Are you patching a slit, or other defect? Welding in Riv-Nuts to bolt down a blind on a duck boat
Are you welding in the horizontal position? Yes
Have you cleaned with a stainless steel brush? Don't know about the material on the brush
What are the actual settings you are using for voltage and speed? Voltage on D speed on 4
What wire (5356?) and diameter are you using? 4030 wire .035 dia
How far is the ground clamp from the weld area? About 4 "

[Goodhand]

Not familiar with the dial settings on your machine. Can you post a close-up photo of the front of your machine? And... a photo of a rivnut.

Yes, getting rid of the aluminum oxide coating with a stainless steel brush is best done before starting to weld. The aluminum oxide acts as an insulator against maintaining a proper arc, and since the oxide melts at about 3 times the temperature of the aluminum underneath, works against you. Trying to weld without removing the oxide produces beads similar to the ones in your photos.

I'm getting close to going out to the garage to see if I can duplicate your beads, then I will know what to do to eliminate the condition.

I wouldn't be continuing to take the time to try to help you, if I didn't think we can, eventually, get the dilemma solved.

[SinGear]

Speaking stricly from an amatuer postion it looks like a shielding gas issue to me. I'm new to the whole aluminum MIG but the spatter looks alot like a gas issue what is your gas set at?

[SundownIII]

I think I'll just sit back and let our new aluminum "expert" and "Master of the 120V Mig" figure this one out. Just know one thing, there's a big difference between welding on a boat and welding irrigation pipe. I don't weld irrigation pipe, I weld aluminum on boats (and have for about 40 years). I don't need to go out to the shop "to figure it out".

I will say this in closing, the OP's last posting just confirmed my previous suspicions. He doesn't have enough machine for the filler (.035--4043) he's trying to use. Better to take it to someone who knows what he's doing than keep trying and blow holes in his boat.

[Goodhand]

I think I'll just sit back and let our new aluminum "expert" and "Master of the 120V Mig" figure this one out. Just know one thing, there's a big difference between welding on a boat and welding irrigation pipe. I don't weld irrigation pipe, I weld aluminum on boats (and have for about 40 years). I don't need to go out to the shop "to figure it out".

I will say this in closing, the OP's last posting just confirmed my previous suspicions. He doesn't have enough machine for the filler (.035--4043) he's trying to use. Better to take it to someone who knows what he's doing than keep trying and blow holes in his boat.

Thanks for the kudos. Glad you've come around.

Perhaps you should pass along your 40 years of experience to Lincoln, so these guys can change their website... http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/compactmig.asp

[Goodhand]

Here are the crappy welds that I have attempted in practice with settings. Let the advice begin, tell me what I am doing wrong. Thanks in advance. I am for warning you on the non quality welds. Just need some help here.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/JOSTERBAUER/101_0390-1.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/JOSTERBAUER/101_0392-1.jpg

I know you've said you wire brushed the aluminum, prior to welding, but I don't see any wire brush marks on the practice strip. Brushing should result in a shiny surface with obvious tiny wire scratches from the brush (I hope you didn't use a hair brush!). Then, you are assured that the oxide is gone. If you don't use a stainless steel brush, you are just filling the aluminum with contaminants when using any old brush.

I'd like to see you really brush the he!! out of the strip, set volts on D, speed on 7, gas at 20 CFH, advance the wire into the piece by pushing the gun, holding it about 3/8" from the piece, then post back with a photo of the result.

[Broccoli1]

Goodhand- he can brush all day until the Cows come home- he ain't gonna get there with .035 AL and the Little Lincoln 100amp machine.
:)

Really should not brush that much anyhoo:)

Aloomeenum takes way more heat to burn the same size wire in steel as well as requiring more heat for the same thickness in material.

[Broccoli1]

Another thing- about the Lincoln article- not sure when it was written but the 120v machine pictured is a 135 Plus- little more juice than the SP100:)

[Goodhand]

Goodhand- he can brush all day until the Cows come home- he ain't gonna get there with .035 AL and the Little Lincoln 100amp machine.
:)

Really should not brush that much anyhoo:)

Aloomeenum takes way more heat to burn the same size wire in steel as well as requiring more heat for the same thickness in material.

Hey, Ed,

So, on a scale of 0-10, zero being no brushing and 10 being brushing until one gets down to bare metal, how much brushing do you think is necessary?

[Goodhand]

Here are the crappy welds that I have attempted in practice with settings. Let the advice begin, tell me what I am doing wrong. Thanks in advance. I am for warning you on the non quality welds. Just need some help here.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/JOSTERBAUER/101_0390-1.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/JOSTERBAUER/101_0392-1.jpg

Okay... I just got back from the garage where I made a startling discovery. I tried welding on some crappy 1/8" aluminum hardware store flats, like in your photos, and at times couldn't even start an arc, even though I'd brushed the flat with a stainless brush. For a few minutes I couldn't figure it out, checking the obvious conditions. So, I grabbed a piece of the large irrigation pipe that I've been practicing on and it welding great - no problem there. Apparently, I wasn't getting continuity when I tried the flat, so I grabbed the piece I had cut the coupon from, laid it across the seat of my motorcycle, and checked surface continuity with an ohmmeter. Surprise... no continuity, until I forcefully jabbed the tips of the meter probes into the surface of the flat.

So, back to the wire wheel for some serious brushing. I had to, literally, muscle the aluminum flat into the wheel in order to remove the coating, which was much more than just oxide. I may be wrong, but it sure looked liked paint to me. Under the aluminum colored surface paint was brown primer. Once I had removed all of the paint, I found the surface of the metal to be uneven and pitted. But, now I had continuity, and no problem in striking and maintaining an arc.

End result... I'll bet that if you apply your practice flats to a wire wheel and get down to bare, shiny metal, your welds will start to sizzle like they should. Looks like you've been trying to weld on top of paint.

Attached is a photo of a flat piece with the coating on the right end removed by strong brushing on my wire wheel.

[Goodhand]

Here are photos of some aluminum welding that some say can't be done with a teeny-tiny 90 amp, 120 volt mig, 0.030 5356 wire. I, probably, have run only 3 to 4 feet of bead, so far, so expect to get more consistent with time.

[SundownIII]

LMAO:D

And you're giving advice on how to weld aluminum. I got seagulls on my pier that do a better job.

Still waiting for that setup for spray transfer with a 120v mig. Got a little Solar 100A mig that I use strictly for sheet metal work with .023 wire. If I can get that little sucker to spray, I may just build me another hunking utility trailer.:rolleyes:

[Broccoli1]

Hey, Ed,

So, on a scale of 0-10, zero being no brushing and 10 being brushing until one gets down to bare metal, how much brushing do you think is necessary?

Tough to say since you did discover some interesting coating on the AL stock you purchased but the stock--1/8" x 2"-- I picked up from Home Depot (last Minute purchase) was not anything like what you encountered.

Typically you just need to get the Oxidation off- which should just take a few strokes and if ya wanna get ****, every time you come back across the brushed area you are just pushing the stuff down into the base metal.

Certainly getting the material prepped will help and if he does have the same problem you encountered he should remove what ever coating is on there but honestly the examples you provided would be ground out and redone.

The basic problem is HEAT- or lack of.

[Goodhand]

LMAO:D

And you're giving advice on how to weld aluminum. I got seagulls on my pier that do a better job.

Still waiting for that setup for spray transfer with a 120v mig. Got a little Solar 100A mig that I use strictly for sheet metal work with .023 wire. If I can get that little sucker to spray, I may just build me another hunking utility trailer.:rolleyes:

Hey, Sundown111,

I just kinda knew I hear back from you... childlike persons are so predictable. You've really added a lot to this string. Thanks for posting.

[Goodhand]

Certainly getting the material prepped will help and if he does have the same problem you encountered he should remove what ever coating is on there but honestly the examples you provided would be ground out and redone.


I'll bet there is not a farmer/rancher alive (including me), who would bother to grind out and redo the samples posted. If it's serviceable, it's put into service. I'm sure the welds on the irrigation pipe were sound... non-leaking, so they'd be good to go. A lot of us are more concerned about function, rather that appearance.

[StillBoostin]

That's one heck of a 120v mig you got there.

Spray transfer???? More like blowing smoke up a wind tunnel.

OP,

Mig welding aluminum presents a totally different set of challenges than does steel.

My first reaction is you're trying the wrong process (mig vs tig) and the machine you have is not the right one for the job.

Thin (.10) aluminum is tough, even for an experienced welder, and your machine makes it even more of a challenge. Not saying it can't be done, but suspect you'd be better off finding someone who could tig it for you.

Photos would help us give better advice.

I agree with your statement, but getting good at MIG welding Al will make him a much better steel weldor. Practice, practice, practice. I couldn't believe how well all my steel and stainless mig welds have looked since I've MIG'd Al. Using a spool gun will push the inexperienced weldor to increase his or her gun speed and makes for a steadier hand. Just my 2 experience.

James


James

[StillBoostin]

James, are you kidding me, your first attempt? Ok you melt by trade don't you? I have to give you credit your first attempt kick the he11 outta mine, pretty nice lookin beads.

I'm not joking. I joined back in march I think and no I don't weld for a living. I wanted to get a tig b/c my customers/ friends wanted better welds. I read a lot of info and listed to all the pros on the site before I attempted welding my welding cart. I got good results, but welding straight horizontal welds are easy compared to all the pipe welding I've done. I was welding for less then one year maybe one a week for friends if that. It can be done. Just lay off the energy drinks before hand. I just jion the Sheet Metal Union so I hope th weld by trade in the future. Everything I have learned has been off the internet and videos' I've bought.

Cart link:
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?t=12868

My first call for help:
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?t=12735

James

I would never lie. It's not in my blood.My father raised me better. Lt. for the State of Maryland

[StillBoostin]

*Wrong gas?
*Nozzle or some part of the gun is loose or broken? Used the 10-15%degree push method.
*Need more heat?
*Turn the knob on the bottle on?
*Your sure your using 100% Argon right?
*30-50 CFM's [EDIT CFH]
Answer these questions please.

James
BTW
CFH

[paulrbrown]

Still, I have not read the whole thread, but it looks like you need to increase voltage quite a bit, and make sure you are using 100% Argon, hope this helps, Paul

[Iron Head]

*Wrong gas?
*Nozzle or some part of the gun is loose or broken? Used the 10-15%degree push method.
*Need more heat?
*Turn the knob on the bottle on?
*Your sure your using 100% Argon right?
*30-50 CFM's
Answer these questions please.

James

When I first seen the pictures, my first thought was way to cold, start turning dials!
Didn’t see where anybody mentioned stick out. :confused:

[josterbauer]

*Wrong gas? 100% argon
*Nozzle or some part of the gun is loose or broken? Used the 10-15%degree push method.
*Need more heat? You tell me
*Turn the knob on the bottle on? It is on
*Your sure your using 100% Argon right? Yes
*30-50 CFM's Been using 25-30

[Goodhand]

*Wrong gas? 100% argon
*Nozzle or some part of the gun is loose or broken? Used the 10-15%degree push method.
*Need more heat? You tell me
*Turn the knob on the bottle on? It is on
*Your sure your using 100% Argon right? Yes
*30-50 CFM's Been using 25-30

DID YOU GET THE PAINT OFF OF YOUR PRACTICE FLATS, if you are still using the hardware store stuff? You'll need a motorized wire wheel of some sort; hand brushing won't get it. No need to spend time trying to determine what else might be wrong with your setup, until you are sure you are welding on bare aluminum.

I think it is pretty much a waste of time to practice on the hardware store aluminum, once you go to all the work to remove the paint - it melts a lot like cast aluminum, as found in pulleys. Better to pick up some scrap pieces at a local welding/fabricating shop... being a better quality, they accept weld so much better. Also, I've found that in using the quality stuff, there isn't even a need to burnish with a stainless steel brush, prior to welding.

BTW... 20-50 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) would be an awful lot of gas to throw away. 20 CFH (Cubic Feet per Hour) should be plenty of cover gas.

See following post for a photo.

[Goodhand]

josterbauer,

Here's a pic of some of tonight's practice... with my teeny-tiny, 90 amp, 120 volt machine. Of course I could be wrong, but it sure looked like it was spraying to me. Cool.

[StillBoostin]

DID YOU GET THE PAINT OFF OF YOUR PRACTICE FLATS, if you are still using the hardware store stuff? You'll need a motorized wire wheel of some sort; hand brushing won't get it. No need to spend time trying to determine what else might be wrong with your setup, until you are sure you are welding on bare aluminum.

I think it is pretty much a waste of time to practice on the hardware store aluminum, once you go to all the work to remove the paint - it melts a lot like cast aluminum, as found in pulleys. Better to pick up some scrap pieces at a local welding/fabricating shop... being a better quality, they accept weld so much better. Also, I've found that in using the quality stuff, there isn't even a need to burnish with a stainless steel brush, prior to welding.

BTW... 20-50 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) would be an awful lot of gas to throw away. 20 CFH (Cubic Feet per Hour) should be plenty of cover gas.

See following post for a photo.

I pay for my gas and you must use atleast 30 cfm on Al while Mig Welding. I us 20 cfm while tig welding. Mig welding Al is a different beast. If you have ever done it you would know.

James

[Broccoli1]

I pay for my gas and you must use atleast 30 cfm on Al will Mig Welding. I us 20 cfm while tig welding. Mig welding Al is a different beast. If you have ever done it you would know.

James

James,

I'll bet ya a dollar you ain't usin' 30 CFM
:D:D

[Goodhand]

I pay for my gas and you must use atleast 30 cfm on Al will Mig Welding. I us 20 cfm while tig welding. Mig welding Al is a different beast. If you have ever done it you would know.

James

Wow! Doing a wee bit of calculating... using a regulator to deliver cover gas at 30 CFM, like you claim to do, means that you are using 1,800 Cubic Feet per Hour. Do you really think you need to cover the whole welding table with gas suppled at 30 CFM? Where do you find a regulator that delivers that much gas? Bet you have to hold the gun with both hands to keep it from whipping around the shop. You might consider an air pump to get oxygen inside your helmet.

Exhaust fans are rated in CFM, referring to Cubic Feet per Minute. Unless I’m wrong, welding gas regulators are rated in CFH, referring to Cubic Feet per Hour.

The manual that came with my machine suggests setting the regulator at 15-20 CFH.

[Goodhand]

Hey, josterbauer,

What's happening? Any progress?

[MrChevy]

What's one of those (about) 4 foot tall bottles? 280 cubic feet of gas?

At 30CFM it would take less than 10 minutes to drain the whole bottle.

30CFH would be 1/2CFM and would take 560 minutes to use up the bottle, 560/60= 9 hours and 20 minutes. That sounds a little more reasonable.

Ken

[josterbauer]

No, I have not had any progress on it yet. I have not had time to get back into the shop. I was using the flats from the hardware store as one mentioned above. I am going to grind the hexx out of the alum, before I try it again. I will keep everyone posted on the progress of the project. Thanks for all the help, and keep the suggestions coming. Thanks Justin

[griff01]

James,

I'll bet ya a dollar you ain't usin' 30 CFM
:D:D

I would give odds on that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Griff

[Marcel Bauer]

"We need more POWER, Captain!" ;)

[Craig in Denver]

There's no paint on his test pieces. It would be obvious, paint blisters. I've used hardware store alum for weekend purchases for years.

The OP is wanting to weld Riv-nuts. They're alum threads, probably smaller than the end joint on my little finger. I would have a hard time welding something that small with my Syncrowave. It would be easier for me to build up welds and drill and tap them. An easier solution would be to buy some 3/8" stock (I like 'thick' nuts when they're alum), drill 'em, tap 'em, cut to size and epoxy in place. Be sure to heavily abrade both the base metal (boat) and the homemade nuts.

CFM is just a mistake made by many, the gauge knows. Get the number right for the process and you're fine.

Since I'm on dial-up, please stop reposting the pictures if you aren't going to make a specific reference to one of them.

[StillBoostin]

James,

I'll bet ya a dollar you ain't usin' 30 CFM
:D:D

You're Cu/ Ft. I still say CFM and mean CFH. You know what I meant Ed. Minus that mistake the rest of my info is good. I'm sure you're still laughing cause I am. Wow some here are a little quick to jump on a simple mistake. I'll buy the beer to put you in the better mood.

James

[StillBoostin]

There's no paint on his test pieces. It would be obvious, paint blisters. I've used hardware store alum for weekend purchases for years.

The OP is wanting to weld Riv-nuts. They're alum threads, probably smaller than the end joint on my little finger. I would have a hard time welding something that small with my Syncrowave. It would be easier for me to build up welds and drill and tap them. An easier solution would be to buy some 3/8" stock (I like 'thick' nuts when they're alum), drill 'em, tap 'em, cut to size and epoxy in place. Be sure to heavily abrade both the base metal (boat) and the homemade nuts.

CFM is just a mistake made by many, the gauge knows. Get the number right for the process and you're fine.

Since I'm on dial-up, please stop reposting the pictures if you aren't going to make a specific reference to one of them.

Sorry brother I'll delete the qouted pics. I forget some are still operating the web on snail speed, cough I mean dial-up.

Lets start a thread giving money to craig in denver to get fiber optic. LOL

[Craig in Denver]

Sorry brother I'll delete the qouted pics. I forget some are still operating the web on snail speed, cough I mean dial-up.

Lets start a thread giving money to Craig in Denver to get fiber optic.LOLStillBoostin: LMAO!! It was gettin' a lil too serious here. :D I'm all in for the donations; PM me for my address. :p :D :eek:

[Goodhand]

There's no paint on his test pieces. It would be obvious, paint blisters. I've used hardware store alum for weekend purchases for years.


Could be you're correct in saying there's no paint. After checking with someone, via phone, the manager at Ace Hardware told me the finish on their aluminum flats was a, "teflon mix," whatever that is supposed to be. Not being satisfied with her "consumer" answer, I asked for a number for their supplier, and phoned to talk to someone, who might actually know something about metal. Found a person who told me the reason the finish was not conductive was because of the anodized finish. He told me he didn't know what a teflon mix was.

I had no idea an anodized finish would be so thick... I've welded on anodized windsurfing masts after removing the finish, but it wasn't nearly as thick as what is on the Ace Hardware flats. But, I'm satisfied, knowing that an anodized finish will make it hard or impossible to weld on, especially for a small mig machine.

Seems strange that one of the visiting "pros" hasn't discerned that the OP's practice flats could be anodized, thus making his learning much easier.

[Broccoli1]

You're Cu/ Ft. I still say CFM and mean CFH. You know what I meant Ed. Minus that mistake the rest of my info is good. I'm sure you're still laughing cause I am. Wow some here are a little quick to jump on a simple mistake. I'll buy the beer to put you in the better mood.

James

James,

I have no idea why you think I'm innna a bad mood- I post up some :D:D to convey the mood I'm in but you seem to over look the smilies.:confused:

I knew you meant CFH:)

It's just a Joke.

[Broccoli1]

No, I have not had any progress on it yet. I have not had time to get back into the shop. I was using the flats from the hardware store as one mentioned above. I am going to grind the hexx out of the alum, before I try it again. I will keep everyone posted on the progress of the project. Thanks for all the help, and keep the suggestions coming. Thanks Justin

Is this a National Hardware Store?

[cruizer]

And I thought I had wild posts:D

I think I answered his question a long long time ago simply using a smaller sized wire, to make full use out of that machines capabilities. Not going to melt 035 AL on a punny machine.

[SundownIII]

Goodhandjob,

If you remember I said a while ago that I'd take a back seat and let you do your thing. Actually been a lot of fun sitting back watching you make a fool of yourself.

BTW: More than likely (95%probability) the stock aluminum he bought at a hardware store is NOT anodized.

Sitting in the background LMAO.

[DDA52]

Ok, if you are getting the alu at Home Depot or Lowes, it is most definitely NOT anodized. I run a good bit of that stuff for testing purposes and it works fine every single time once you brush the oxides off.....by hand.

Looking at the pics, one problem is blatantly obvious. You have a very serious atmospheric contamination deal going on. Seeing all that oxidation is the first clue.....it takes oxygen to create oxides. Oxygen = bad welds in alu. You probably have a bad o-ring or something along those lines in the gun or at the connection.....you are getting air in the gas line somewhere. Find that and you will be on your way. It could even be a bad bottle of Argon, that happens as well. I wouldn't run the gas any less than 30cfh. 25 may work well in some cases, but 30 is my mainstay. Alu is extremely sensitive to atmospheric contamination. The increased gas pressure will help keep the air out. Try maxxing out the gas flow and see if that helps. If everything straightens out, you definitely have a leak...if it gets a teensy bit better, you have a big leak....find it. You shouldn't run the gas maxxed out normally. It will create turbulence at the weld pool that causes other troubles, but is also a waste. Max it out for troubleshooting only.

Second, your machine is underpowered, but it may be able to barely work under ideal circumstances...but it will be maxxed out completely. You should be able to short circuit the alu, but then that is exactly what you should not be doing. It should be in spray transfer. Short circuit welds are too cold and don't get enough fusion at the toes which will result in cracking , esp in a stress area. If you must use a 120v machine, put it on a dedcated 20-30a circuit, do not use an extension cord of any kind and use .030 4043 wire. 5356 needs more power to run effectively, even though it feeds better. .035 wire is a no-go. Not enough power at all.

FWIW, a little preheat wouldn't hurt a bit and may help considerably. Alu dissapates heat so fast, that little unit needs all the heat and help it can get.

Let the flaming commence.:rolleyes:

[Marcel Bauer]

I agree with you DDA52, the machine is totally underpowered for this task.

Combine this with aluminum that is varnished(?) or something and you have huge problems.

That stuff doesn't look anodized to me and even if it was, you have to get to clean bare metal.

Contamination, low power is my verdict.

[Broccoli1]

I agree with you DDA52, the machine is totally underpowered for this task.

Combine this with aluminum that is varnished(?) or something and you have huge problems.

That stuff doesn't look anodized to me and even if it was, you have to get to clean bare metal.

Contamination, low power is my verdict.

Give that man a Beer & a Fishin' Pole:D

[KB Fabrications]

Give that man a Beer & a Fishin' Pole:D
And then let's get to singing!!!http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gif


:D

[JTMcC]

Lot's of us that live out in the sticks have dial up as the only option. I'm on the 2nd oldest phone system in the state of Arizona:)

And, real welders don't mig weld aluminum.

JTMcC;)

[paulrbrown]

Yep, us 'Real Weldors' use Friction Stir or even Explosives so we can weld Copper to Nickel like the US Quarters or even steel to aluminum like in a Destroyer.......HoooYaaa.....

Brown over and out

[Goodhand]

And I thought I had wild posts:D

I think I answered his question a long long time ago simply using a smaller sized wire, to make full use out of that machines capabilities. Not going to melt 035 AL on a punny machine.

Just curious... when was the last time you tried to melt .035 on a punny machine?

[paulrbrown]

Well, last year I had a job where I had to be 150 feet from the 302 and 30A Spoolgun, had to use an 8 guage AC cable extension to a 135 Lincoln with .035 5356...it worked great on thin 16 guage, but the 1/8 stuff I had to do, HAHAHA, it just laughed and balled up pretty much....BTW, 4043 would not feed...even with a new teflon liner.....and oversize tip, hope this helps,Paul

[Goodhand]

Goodhandjob,

If you remember I said a while ago that I'd take a back seat and let you do your thing. Actually been a lot of fun sitting back watching you make a fool of yourself.

BTW: More than likely (95%probability) the stock aluminum he bought at a hardware store is NOT anodized.

Sitting in the background LMAO.

And, once again, you prove you are just a crude and rude guy, and apparently not very intelligent (oh, but I forgot... you can weld boats... big deal). If and when we ever hear back from OP, giving us some accurate information, then we'll all know who the fool is. Be prepared.

[JTMcC]

Yep, us 'Real Weldors' use Friction Stir or even Explosives so we can weld Copper to Nickel like the US Quarters or even steel to aluminum like in a Destroyer.......HoooYaaa.....

Brown over and out


I used to make quarters in my basement. I welded them with my 110v mig and hand hammered the scenes (front AND back) with a 4 lbs. beater.
5/64" 211 wire, maxed out.
And they said it couldn't be done.

JTMcC.

[KB Fabrications]

http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gifhttp://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gifhttp://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gif

[paulrbrown]

JTMcC, gotta admit, you got patience makin them Quarters, did ya ever use 12018, stuff is hard as Chinese Algebra, I once made a ring outa a silver quarter like convicts used to do, man, after the first one, I said I would never go to jail just to make rings. Lets all hope there is 220v or 3phase when we get to the great forge below....or at least Inverters.
Now where did I leave my 'Engineering Capsule', BTW, I just moved in to the city from the country and we were with out power more than I would like, thank goodness for Ole Bobcaticus 225NT. The area is where all the flooding is going on here in FL by the St. Johns River, I moved 2 weeks before and Man, I am lucky...Later...Paul

[JTMcC]

http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gifhttp://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gifhttp://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/kumbaya.gif


Not many people know this, but the first 110v mig was called just that, the Kumbaya MkIV, it was made by Webley-Vickers in the south of Wales. They had a wooden case so termite damage has put most of them out of service.

JTMcC, Welder Historian.

This is for real folks, look it up.

[paulrbrown]

Guess they shoulda used 'Ironwood' as they gots lots of it down there I heard.....I had a pal in North Carolina, Randleman to be exact, by King Richard, who had a wooden cased machine from Ought 6 or so...never saw it fired up though....we have an old Hobart at work from WWII that still arc gouges pretty good, them welder generators can make a racket though....and recently a company here scraped out some machines with 12 cylinder gasoline Detroit Diesel power, my boss wanted to get them and put them in a boat, but waited too long....Take Care, Paul

[SundownIII]

Mr Goodhandjob,

You're right about one thing, I do weld on boats. Unless I misread something to begin with the OP was asking a question about "welding on boats", not how farmers weld irrigation pipe.

Seems that it may, in fact, be you who's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

By the way, I do happen to have a MM251 w/30A spoolgun and a Syncrowave 250DX in the shop, either of which do a fine job with aluminum. For 90% of the repairs I do, tig is my choice. Just much better control of the heat and less potential for doing significant additional damage to the base metal. Nearly all boats have some oxidation which must be removed prior to welding. Very difficult to properly gauge the heat, filler deposit with mig.

But then again, you've got one of those supercharged 120v migs which will do everything the big boys will do. NOT!

How many pro's have to tell you the OP's machine is underpowered for the job before you believe it?

[Goodhand]

Mr Goodhandjob,

You're right about one thing, I do weld on boats. Unless I misread something to begin with the OP was asking a question about "welding on boats", not how farmers weld irrigation pipe.

Seems that it may, in fact, be you who's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

By the way, I do happen to have a MM251 w/30A spoolgun and a Syncrowave 250DX in the shop, either of which do a fine job with aluminum. For 90% of the repairs I do, tig is my choice. Just much better control of the heat and less potential for doing significant additional damage to the base metal. Nearly all boats have some oxidation which must be removed prior to welding. Very difficult to properly gauge the heat, filler deposit with mig.

But then again, you've got one of those supercharged 120v migs which will do everything the big boys will do. NOT!

How many pro's have to tell you the OP's machine is underpowered for the job before you believe it?

The reason I question your intelligence is because you keep making illogical statements, proving you don't have a clue about a lot of things. It might surprise you to find out that a lot of irrigation pipe is made out of aluminum... just like a lot of boats. Cool, huh?

Just can't figure out why you keep coming back with such non-helpful info. If OP can get his boat to me, I will show him how he can weld his boat just fine with his teeny, tiny 120 volt machine. Don't know why you keep trying to prove that your machine is bigger than OP's or mine... just not needed for his application. I've never implied that you don't know how to weld on boats, and you probably do a very competent job, but you don't know all things welding, you just think you do. Now, go back to watching Bevis and Butthead.

[BBchevy396]

http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/beavis_butthead_kiss.gif

[Goodhand]

That's good for laughs.:D

[DDA52]

The reason I question your intelligence is because you keep making illogical statements, proving you don't have a clue about a lot of things. It might surprise you to find out that a lot of irrigation pipe is made out of aluminum... just like a lot of boats. Cool, huh?

Just can't figure out why you keep coming back with such non-helpful info. If OP can get his boat to me, I will show him how he can weld his boat just fine with his teeny, tiny 120 volt machine. Don't know why you keep trying to prove that your machine is bigger than OP's or mine... just not needed for his application. I've never implied that you don't know how to weld on boats, and you probably do a very competent job, but you don't know all things welding, you just think you do. Now, go back to watching Bevis and Butthead.

Man, I have yet to see any illogical statements made by Sundown. He does know his stuff. What I do see is a belligerant attitude on your part because he disagrees with you. I have run alu with a 120v machine. Quite a bit of it and more than enough to know it doesn't work that well. It is fine to play with, but not for general application, and esp a 100a machine. I was using a 135 and it was too cold..I can only guess what a 100a would be like. It will not hit spray transfer at 100a. Spray is what you must have for a good, durable alu weld. Of the welds you posted, while they looked ok, only one was possibly in spray transfer. The others were most definitely short circuit. Any time an alu bead sits on the top and doesn't flow out and have a almost flat profile, it was not spray. Boat hulls have a completely different stress profile than a simple irrigation pipe. Telling him he can get it done properly with the small machine is flat out wrong and irresponsible. If you had more time under the hood with alu, you'd know that. Just because it looks ok and you think it is ok, doesn't make it so. Cold lap and incomplete fusion are death to alu welds. Cld lap you can see...but how will you see the fusion?? You need to be doing it right to start with and then it isn't a problem.

To the OP, practice with the small unit to try to get a feel for the alu. It is funny stuff. BUT, for welding the boat hull, I would recommend renting or borrowing at least a 175/180 class machine. That thickness is within their capabilities. You will see a world of difference between the two.

[SundownIII]

Don,

Insightful post.

One of the reasons I take exception with "guidance" from posters who've never performed a particular repair but are quick to tell someone how to do it is because of all the damage I've seen done by inexperienced "first timer's".

I've seen so many botched repairs that made "proper repair" almost impossible. If the owner had taken his boat to someone who knew what he was doing, it would have been a simple repair. Almost invariably, the repair becomes much more difficult because some "do it yourselfer" attempted it. You've either got BB's all over the base material, or you've got holes blown in the material. Aluminum that's been exposed to the marine environment presents challenges not encountered in other applications.

Seriously, after looking at the OP's photos of his practice welds on aluminum, is there anyone on here who thinks he's ready (or will be in the immediate future) to tackle his boat, regardless of the equipment (welder) he has available.

Thinner aluminum (.10" or so) is tough enough to do properly with mig (got to run so fast). That's when you know what you're dealing with (new, non-fatigued metal). On a used boat, that's nearly never the case.

Just seen way too many cases where a simple repair became a major project because some inexperienced trigger puller "botched the job". Having "seen someone do it" is not the same as having done it many times over. Would you want someone performing open heart surgery on you because he had seen it done on "General Hospital"?

Back to watching and laughing at some of the posters here.

[josterbauer]

I have come to a decision to not mig on the boat. Instead I just used another method of the torch and filler rod to get the job done. The metal on the boat it too thick compared to the riv nuts. With the torch and filler method, It came out perfect. I am still going to try and perfect the mig welding on aluminum. Thanks to everyone for the input. Even the ladies bickering back and forth. Everyone has been helpful. Thanks

[JTMcC]

Thanks to everyone for the input. Even the ladies bickering back and forth. Everyone has been helpful. Thanks


You should understand that in welding and welding repairs there is many times ONE correct method.
Sometimes there is ONE correct method but another one or two that will work, just not as well.
Sometimes there are multiple solutions that will work equally well, but not usually.

So, when there is a discussion (arguement, whatever) going on over the proper way to do the job it means (most times) that one person is right and the other person is wrong. There is no shortage of bad welding related info on the net. When knowledgable people make an effort to correct bad info they usually get bashed by those putting out the bad.

So sometimes you need to look closely at what you call "bickering" because chances are someone with real world, first hand experience is trying to keep you from following bad advise from an internet welder.

Commenting on your craft, the means by which you pay the bills and feed the kids, is not being a "bickering lady" but trying to helpfull and keep good accurate info out there.

My take.

JTMcC.

[Goodhand]

Thanks to everyone for the input. Even the ladies bickering back and forth.

Hey, josterbauer, up yours,

After all of the time and effort I spent trying to help you figure out your poor welding, I think your post is pretty disrespectful. But, it does put you in company with self-proclaimed "pros" who are so stupid, they think they know it all. Being a scientist, inventor, and doctor, I'm sure glad they all chose a field other than medicine, wherein one needs to make rational decisions. Many of the posters in this string have made it abundantly clear that those types of decisions are not necessary in order to be a welder. Notice I did not generalize (as sundown is often quick to do) and say that all welders fit this category.

I spent the afternoon fishing with a good friend, who is the lead welder (and tig artist) at a local fabrication shop, and when I told how I was dissed because I welded up a tow bar with my 120 volt machine, he asked, "Why couldn't you do it?" He then commented that some guys just think they know it all (sound familiar?).

[dabar39]

Hey Goodhand, I've been sitting back here for awhile tempted to jump in but decided it wasn't worth it. But I will make it known that in my opinion the guys on here that I would take their advice to the bank are SundownIII, DDA52, KB Fab, Black Wolf, Calweld, Fat Fab and a few others. They have probably forgotten more than you will ever be able to learn in your lifetime. If they say the OP don't have enough machine or experience to do the proper job, it means he ain't got enough machine or experience to do the job, case closed. So if I was you I would sit back and be humbled by their collective experience.

Oh, and by the way, I've been welding for 20 some odd years myself and still learn things from these guys.

[Goodhand]

Hey Goodhand, I've been sitting back here for awhile tempted to jump in but decided it wasn't worth it. But I will make it known that in my opinion the guys on here that I would take their advice to the bank are SundownIII, DDA52, KB Fab, Black Wolf, Calweld, Fat Fab and a few others. They have probably forgotten more than you will ever be able to learn in your lifetime. If they say the OP don't have enough machine or experience to do the proper job, it means he ain't got enough machine or experience to do the job, case closed. So if I was you I would sit back and be humbled by their collective experience.

Oh, and by the way, I've been welding for 20 some odd years myself and still learn things from these guys.

Hey, dabar39,

Appreciate your post, but sorry, it is not my style to sit back and be humbled by someone, who tells me I can't weld up a tow bar with my 120 volt machine, when I have already proved him wrong, because I've done it. And, it tows my small utility trailer just fine (no thanks to sundown). My tow bar is built so well, I'll wager that, if tested to the max in a full-on pull test, the receiver would be pulled off the vehicle with the bar remaining intact. So... sundown is 100% wrong on this one. Any reason I should just sit back and accept anything else he might throw out there, since he so missed it on the tow bar? I am no fool, but when I'm called a fool by persons, who prove they don't know what they are talking about, then I get a bit perturbed.

Sundown also posted something to the effect that there was about a 95% chance that the practice aluminum josterbauer was using was not anodized. Once I learned that the flat I had for practice was anodized, it seemed pretty assured that the jb flats were also anodized, because in his photo, they appeared to be the same as mine. Once again, I suspect that sundown was 100% wrong in saying jb's flats weren't anodized. Of course now we'll never know for sure, because jb has lost interest. I realize, now, that in this case sundown was right early on... jb was in over his head and didn't even have the interest to find out if his stuff was anodized.

[Black Wolf]

I will make it known that in my opinion the guys on here that I would take their advice to the bank are SundownIII, DDA52, KB Fab, Black Wolf, Calweld, Fat Fab and a few others. They have probably forgotten more than you will ever be able to learn in your lifetime...

Thank you very much for the compliment Dave, I truly appreciate it.

[dabar39]

Thank you very much for the compliment Dave, I truly appreciate it.

Jason, Wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.

And as you know I have had a run in or two with at least one of the others mentioned, and although I didn't agree with them at one point or another it doesn't mean that I respect their talents or abilities any less.

[DDA52]

Dabar, I also thank you for the kudos.:)


Goodhand, you are now an expert at identifying a chemical coating at three feet by a pic, huh? I highly doubt it. That bar looks exactly the same as my regular run 6000 series aluminum. There is no evidence of any coating being burned off by his welds. If there were some coating there, it would be evidenced by a cloud of soot and burned/charred material around every single weld ..on the base material. There is no such cloud or soot, just that on the beads which is a hallmark of atmospheric contamination. More time running alu would have told you that as well. It is very rare to find anodized alu in box stores. Most is run of the mill raw aluminum.

You can disrespect us all you want because you think we know it all. I am here to say we do not, but we do in fact know quite a bit...and by extension, quite a bit more than you. That is a fact you cannot escape. I am approaching the 25 year mark and I am still learning. You actually never stop learning if you are continually striving for perfection. We have to prove ourselves all the time. That is one reason we are sure about what we say. I own and run my own shop and I still have to take tests to prove what I can do. That is the way of the welding business. If you want to run weld beads professionally, you must test often because no one will take your word for it..ever. We do know what we are talking about and can prove it...and do prove it all the time. Reread what JTMc posted. He knows of what he speaks. There is bad info being doled out every day. Some of it is dangerous enough to cost lives. When we that are in the biz see bad info, we set out to correct it. ...and you don't like being corrected obviously.

You think being a weldor means no rational thought is needed, huh? You would be totally wrong on that. On some of the things I have done, if you aren't doing it just right and have a well thought out plan, you and others will die in a very violent manner. Try hanging 60,000# precast panels without using your head just once, and you and others will be pancakes. That is rare outcome for that type work, so someone is capable of rational thought. More like most are....I won't speak for all.

Since you brought up the subject of the tow bar, why don't you take that thing to a CWI and or test lab and have a full battery of testing and DOT certification done on it? I would suspect you would be in for a big surprise. I probably could weld a hitch or bar sufficiently with a small unit to tow a light trailer...but I would never do it. I doubt one could get it to pass UL or DOT with the small unit. It lacks the power to muscle out the slag and impurities and get hot enough to completely fuse the parts with no cold lap or cold toes that the larger machines do. If you have ever used a large machine, you would know what I am talking about. It may work for you, but it is by no means the correct and proper way to do it. If you can't accept that, wait until it fails and you are facing a lawsuit for improper welding on a vehicle that results in accident or death. I believe the actual term they use is negligent. You will face a battery of CWI's, DOT inspectors and lab techs that will force you to see that it is not the right way to weld anything that will affect life and limb.

There are reasons we say what we do. We have gone through the school of hard knocks for a very long time. It is not a school you really graduate from either. We all have taken lumps on one thing or another. All will admit there is more than one way to do most things....but there are also ways NOT to do things as well. It takes humility to admit when one is wrong. You have several hundred years of combined experience telling you that you are wrong. Take it as you will....or not.:rolleyes:

[Bodybagger]

The first clue that the original poster wasn't ready for this was when he told us he was blowing holes in his boat.

You don't experiment on cars, boats, airplanes, bridges, hitches, overhead lifting devices, etc! Because you will make mistakes while learning... and people die when these things fail! Just look at the weld failure at the Hyatt Regency Kansas City... 114 people died. You don't try new things on critical places!

Best practices of welding include prequalification... whether official or unofficial. Making a similar welding fitup with scrap to test parameters and technique is crucial before attempting a new procedure on something expensive or critical!

If he did this and was blowing holes in scrap, he wouldn't have taken the torch to his boat! At least not until he got it right first.

I used one of those Lincoln pro core 100's welding 1/8 mild steel with .030 flux core wire and that maxed it out. I know that machine will not melt .035 aluminum wire. It may short circuit on the base metal and deposit it, but it will not lay down a weld. It does not have the heat. My 240V Lincoln Pro mig 175 needs to be turned up to E tap and about 8-9 wire speed to weld 1/8" aluminum with .035 wire and that's maxed out.

It would take 3 of those 100's to match that much heat.

Now the 120V machine I have is the pro mig 135. I have used it to weld suspension parts when nothing else was available. But I used preheat and made a test specimen specifically to test to destruction to verify the failure of the base metal before the weld.

That's another thing... it doesn't make a weld adequate just because something on the car breaks first... there has always been one gold standard for a properly fused weld:

The finished weld is stronger than the BASE METAL.

[Goodhand]

DDA52,

>>>>Goodhand, you are now an expert at identifying a chemical coating at three feet by a pic, huh? I highly doubt it. That bar looks exactly the same as my regular run 6000 series aluminum.<<<<

Now, see, there is another good example of starting off a response to me by being a wise arse. I’ve never claimed to be an expert. WOULD YOU MIND POSTING A PHOTO of that, “...regular run 6000 series aluminum,” so we can see how it compares to OP’s and mine? Betcha don’t.

>>>>There is no evidence of any coating being burned off by his welds. If there were some coating there, it would be evidenced by a cloud of soot and burned/charred material around every single weld ..on the base material. There is no such cloud or soot, just that on the beads which is a hallmark of atmospheric contamination. More time running alu would have told you that as well. It is very rare to find anodized alu in box stores. Most is run of the mill raw aluminum. <<<<

It would really help, if you had provided quotes from me when you posted in response to something I posted. That way I don't have to keep going back and forth when responding to your post.

You know I just may be that expert you describe, even though you doubt it. Are you looking at OP's photos on a CRT or LCD monitor? I am able to view streaks on the surface of OP's flats on my ViewSonic LCD monitor that are very similar to those on my flats. Also, when I tried to weld on top of the anodized surface when I could strike an arc, it wouldn't maintain the arc or bead, just like OP’s.

It may be rare to find anodized alu in box stores, but I've been finding it at Ace Hardware. Showed some of mine to a local local welding shop owner, who verified it was anodized and told me a way to test it was to put it to a grinder. If it gives off sparks, it's anodized. Did you know that? Would have been an easy test for OP to perform, right? Seems to me like at least one of you pros would have suggested that early on.

>>>>You can disrespect us all you want because you think we know it all.<<<<

Wish you didn’t keep twisting my words. I’ve never said I disrespect you all. And, I’ve never said it’s because I think you know it all. What I’ve intimated is that I have little or no respect for someone who thinks he knows it all (and then attempts to belittle someone else from his position of false authority).

>>>>I am here to say we do not, but we do in fact know quite a bit...and by extension, quite a bit more than you. That is a fact you cannot escape. I am approaching the 25 year mark and I am still learning. You actually never stop learning if you are continually striving for perfection. We have to prove ourselves all the time. That is one reason we are sure about what we say. I own and run my own shop and I still have to take tests to prove what I can do. That is the way of the welding business. If you want to run weld beads professionally, you must test often because no one will take your word for it..ever. We do know what we are talking about and can prove it...and do prove it all the time. Reread what JTMc posted. He knows of what he speaks. There is bad info being doled out every day. Some of it is dangerous enough to cost lives. When we that are in the biz see bad info, we set out to correct it. ...and you don't like being corrected obviously.<<<<

I’m here to learn, too. But, don’t really care to be corrected by a smart mouth.

>>>>You think being a weldor means no rational thought is needed, huh? You would be totally wrong on that. On some of the things I have done, if you aren't doing it just right and have a well thought out plan, you and others will die in a very violent manner. Try hanging 60,000# precast panels without using your head just once, and you and others will be pancakes. That is rare outcome for that type work, so someone is capable of rational thought. More like most are....I won't speak for all.<<<<

I think I was very careful to not generalize when I wrote that, based on their posts on this site, some individuals show that it does not take rational thought to be a welder. That is just what they have revealed by their posts. If you somehow misconstrued that to the point where you thought I meant ALL welders, I appologize for not making my point clearer. I have utmost respect for the background, knowledge, and skill that it takes to be a professional welder, but a little humility goes a long way. I get along great with the local welders - my sense is that we share a mutual respect, something that is lacking on this board.

>>>>Since you brought up the subject of the tow bar, why don't you take that thing to a CWI and or test lab and have a full battery of testing and DOT certification done on it? I would suspect you would be in for a big surprise. I probably could weld a hitch or bar sufficiently with a small unit to tow a light trailer...but I would never do it. I doubt one could get it to pass UL or DOT with the small unit. It lacks the power to muscle out the slag and impurities and get hot enough to completely fuse the parts with no cold lap or cold toes that the larger machines do. If you have ever used a large machine, you would know what I am talking about. It may work for you, but it is by no means the correct and proper way to do it. If you can't accept that, wait until it fails and you are facing a lawsuit for improper welding on a vehicle that results in accident or death. I believe the actual term they use is negligent. You will face a battery of CWI's, DOT inspectors and lab techs that will force you to see that it is not the right way to weld anything that will affect life and limb.<<<<

I will do just that! Love a good challenge... if you will post that photo of your 6000 run aluminum, first.

>>>>There are reasons we say what we do. We have gone through the school of hard knocks for a very long time. It is not a school you really graduate from either. We all have taken lumps on one thing or another. All will admit there is more than one way to do most things....but there are also ways NOT to do things as well. It takes humility to admit when one is wrong. You have several hundred years of combined experience telling you that you are wrong. Take it as you will....or not.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]<<<<

Wrong about what, exactly? That OP can weld his nuts to his boat with a 120 volt mig? Isn't that what started all of this? :-)

[uhohjim]

Holy Crap.....After gettin up to feed one of my 4 month old twins I couldn't get back to sleep......So here I am............Started readin this thread ...and reading .and reading......I figured out that some people no matter what know it all....... I'm not one of those people...I still have plenty to learn....I have taken away plenty of useful info from this site and added some when I could............and lemme tell yuh....this thread has definitely cured my mid-night insomnia.......thanx all JIM ........ going back to sleep in crete

[griff01]

Hey, josterbauer, up yours,

After all of the time and effort I spent trying to help you figure out your poor welding, I think your post is pretty disrespectful. But, it does put you in company with self-proclaimed "pros" who are so stupid, they think they know it all. Being a scientist, inventor, and doctor, I'm sure glad they all chose a field other than medicine, wherein one needs to make rational decisions. Many of the posters in this string have made it abundantly clear that those types of decisions are not necessary in order to be a welder. Notice I did not generalize (as sundown is often quick to do) and say that all welders fit this category.

I spent the afternoon fishing with a good friend, who is the lead welder (and tig artist) at a local fabrication shop, and when I told how I was dissed because I welded up a tow bar with my 120 volt machine, he asked, "Why couldn't you do it?" He then commented that some guys just think they know it all (sound familiar?).

I can't stand it anymore. Your expert artist is not much of an expert if he thinks an underpowered machine is sufficient for critical weldments such as towbars.

Just because you get it stuck on does not mean a proper weld is performed.
Luck is NOT a qualification of a procedure.

I once saw an old-timer driving a Ford Ranger, pulling a 24ft camper, and a boat behind the camper. He said he was smarter than all the experts that said the Ranger was not what he needed to pull the camper. Reminds me of you.

You and the Ranger driver are the ones I fear meeting going down the road. You are an accident waiting to happen.


Griff

[BBchevy396]

Goodhand,

You should probably get to eating this because with every post that you insist on arguing with the professionals, the pile keeps getting bigger, and I'm not sure you have that big of an appetite.

http://jonreid.blogs.com/oneanother/eat-crow.jpg

[diverbill45]

Hey fellas, ............ after 10 pages of this thread, I'm come to the conclusion that the only real thing that's been proven here is that GOODHAND has JACKED his brain into the realm of stupidity. :)

Nothing anyone says is going to change his mind about the abilities of his powerful "toy" machine.

There's MAN toys and then there's BOY toys. There's also real professionals and the self titled, uuuhhh ........... so called pros. Which toy, and by whom, do you want your next towbar to be welded with? :D

It's way past time to end this thread.

[Goodhand]

I can't stand it anymore. Your expert artist is not much of an expert if he thinks an underpowered machine is sufficient for critical weldments such as towbars.


I once saw an old-timer driving a Ford Ranger, pulling a 24ft camper, and a boat behind the camper. He said he was smarter than all the experts that said the Ranger was not what he needed to pull the camper.
Griff

Oh, yeah, let's play the game of Battling Experts... my expert is better than your expert. What fun!

Okay, let's see if I can get this straight. You say you saw an old-timer, pulling a camper with a boat behind the camper, and that "experts" had told him he couldn't tow them with a Ranger. Looks to me like he was smarter than the nay-sayers... by your own words you said you saw him towing.

Pointless for me to explain your lapse in logic. It's pretty obvious you wouldn't comprehend it, anyway.

Still can't figure out why posters like you attempt in your own feeble ways to keep putting me down, like the "experts" who were wrong about the old-timer and his Ranger. Geeesh.

[Goodhand]

It's way past time to end this thread.

Can't end it yet. Still watching for that photo from DDA52.:rolleyes::D:o:)

[dabar39]

Oh, yeah, let's play the game of Battling Experts... my expert is better than your expert. What fun!

Okay, let's see if I can get this straight. You say you saw an old-timer, pulling a camper with a boat behind the camper, and that "experts" had told him he couldn't tow them with a Ranger. Looks to me like he was smarter than the nay-sayers... by your own words you said you saw him towing.

Pointless for me to explain your lapse in logic. It's pretty obvious you wouldn't comprehend it, anyway.

Still can't figure out why posters like you attempt in your own feeble ways to keep putting me down, like the "experts" who were wrong about the old-timer and his Ranger. Geeesh.

You Sir, are a lot more dangerous than I had first thought, glad I live more than half a country away from you.

[DDA52]

Well, you can just keep on waiting, too. If I feel like it tomorrow when I am in the shop, I might take a pic, but you have really given me little incentive to take one. I do not need to prove myself to you at all. First off, you call me a wise ***, and then basically call me out. :rolleyes: That sure isn't any way to get something you want. I did a pretty good job of staying civil, too, but you do seem intent on playing the victim.:rolleyes:

Bill put it best, you won't change your mind no matter what anyone says or proves. You say you are a doctor and a scientist, right? That would mean you are degreed in your fields, correct? Well, you don't see us critically commenting on your field of expertise........and if we did...we'd be in the wrong. But, you do find it appropriate to be critical of the field we are degreed in. Diverbill and JT probably have more certifications than a major metropolitan phonebook has pages. Doesn't seem to matter to you. I have had quite a few myself as have most of the others you are putting down. We have paid our dues in this field. You have not. We try to help those that want it by cutting through the wrong info and showing those that truly want to learn how things are done and what is accepted and what is not. That is the way of the world and I am fairly sure that is the way of things in your field of profession. If you believe we are wrong, that is your perogative. We, however, have years and years of actual experience and testing behind us to back up our claims...something you do not have a fraction of. If you think you have been wronged, why don't you go over to the AWS forum and lay this stuff on them. You will quickly find we all will pretty much say the exact same things. There is a reason for that, but you obviously do not want to learn why...and that is sad.:rolleyes:

[BBchevy396]

I get the feeling this guys is some kind of optometrist, or something. :confused:
Which is sort of like a "lite" beer. Doesn't really have the nuts to be a real beer.

That said,..... IMO, an OPTIRECTOMY for Goodhand seems to be in order. If the good doctor isn't familiar with that,...... It is a medical procedure, where you remove a sizable portion of the abdomen, and replace it with plexiglass. That way the subject can see where he's going, while he has his head up his @$$. :D

Come on back with the return salvo dude,.... or go play with your toys, I dont care either way.

Myself, on the other hand, will return to MY Fabrication business, where the correct tools get used for the job at hand.

[Goodhand]

Well, you can just keep on waiting, too. If I feel like it tomorrow when I am in the shop, I might take a pic, but you have really given me little incentive to take one. I do not need to prove myself to you at all. First off, you call me a wise ***, and then basically call me out. :rolleyes: That sure isn't any way to get something you want. I did a pretty good job of staying civil, too, but you do seem intent on playing the victim.:rolleyes:

Bill put it best, you won't change your mind no matter what anyone says or proves. You say you are a doctor and a scientist, right? That would mean you are degreed in your fields, correct? Well, you don't see us critically commenting on your field of expertise........and if we did...we'd be in the wrong. But, you do find it appropriate to be critical of the field we are degreed in. Diverbill and JT probably have more certifications than a major metropolitan phonebook has pages. Doesn't seem to matter to you. I have had quite a few myself as have most of the others you are putting down. We have paid our dues in this field. You have not. We try to help those that want it by cutting through the wrong info and showing those that truly want to learn how things are done and what is accepted and what is not. That is the way of the world and I am fairly sure that is the way of things in your field of profession. If you believe we are wrong, that is your perogative. We, however, have years and years of actual experience and testing behind us to back up our claims...something you do not have a fraction of. If you think you have been wronged, why don't you go over to the AWS forum and lay this stuff on them. You will quickly find we all will pretty much say the exact same things. There is a reason for that, but you obviously do not want to learn why...and that is sad.:rolleyes:

I have stated several times that I am not critical of your field of endeavor, but I am critical of some of the members of your trade. How can I be more clear? You tell me.

Of course you don't have to prove yourself to me, if you don't chose to, but I really don't have to prove myself to you, either. In your first post to me you came off as a wise ***, so I responded in kind (kinda like going to your level of communication). But, I had the thought that at long last here was a guy (you) that was making some sense. Then, I make a simple request for you to post a photo of the alu that you claim looks like OP's, and right away the hackles go up (How dare I challenge you? Are you just too important to take the time to back up your statement?) If you don't post a pic to substantiate your claim, then I have to assume you can't; that's just the way it is.)

I would sure like to have a civil discussion with someone, who would respond likewise, but so far to a man, everyone just enjoys making snide comments. Not exactly what I imagine to be the philosophy of this board. But, I could be wrong.

[Goodhand]

I get the feeling this guys is some kind of optometrist, or something. :confused:
Which is sort of like a "lite" beer. Doesn't really have the nuts to be a real beer.

That said,..... IMO, an OPTIRECTOMY for Goodhand seems to be in order. If the good doctor isn't familiar with that,...... It is a medical procedure, where you remove a sizable portion of the abdomen, and replace it with plexiglass. That way the subject can see where he's going, while he has his head up his @$$. :D

Come on back with the return salvo dude,.... or go play with your toys, I dont care either way.

Myself, on the other hand, will return to MY Fabrication business, where the correct tools get used for the job at hand.

Yup, you're a real sharpie. Can't challenge that.

BTW... "lite beer" doctors of optometry often have to sort out symptoms of patients with brain tumors, along with other diseases, while practicing general optometry. S'pose you guys perform feats like that, too?

Oh, and you seem to be pretty familiar with what you called an, "optirectomy." Personal experience, I assume. Curious... on how you can see through all of that brown stuff. So much fun... mucking around with your mentality. Bet you think you are soooooo cute.

[BBchevy396]

WOW,http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/wow.gif Your a real miracle worker,..... almost like JESUS! Knows ALL, sees ALL, and can even cure brain cancer! http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/hail.gif

Yeah,... Ive heard about all those world class Optometry clinics they have out there in MONTANA. :rolleyes:

Bet you have those sheep's peepers so fixed up, they can see you coming a mile away. http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/sheephump.gif


BTW, is the welding advice covered under my Blue Cross health plan, or is there gonna be a co-pay?

[DDA52]

My first post was neither hostile nor acerbic...but you took it that way..and stooped? Please. Playing the victim card again.:rolleyes:

I said I might take the pic and never acted like my hackles were up. You would know it if they were. I speak several languages and can make my points standout very nicely. You just didn't give much incentive to do so...and still haven't. It is obvious to all whose hackles are up.:rolleyes:


The pic is not worth much anyway. What you see as proof are nothing more than marks made in the alu during handling and processing. Alu marks up very easily when raw. Anodizing it makes it harder and as a result will RESIST marking like raw alu. That is basic metalurgy 101. They anodize alu cylinder walls to harden them and resist wear. The marks you see are actually considered wear....and yes, I have a LCD HD monitor. Depending on the acid used, some marks can be present on anodized alu. But marks alone are no indication of it being annodized. All the anodizing process does is increase the oxide layer's thickness. Those oxides are harder than the alu and also have a higher melting point. Plus, they crack when exposed to welding heat.

I could go on, but I see no use. I'm getting weary of this. I believe I have better things to do at present.

[Goodhand]

WOW,http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/wow.gif Your a real miracle worker,..... almost like JESUS! Knows ALL, sees ALL, and can even cure brain cancer! http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/hail.gif

Yeah,... Ive heard about all those world class Optometry clinics they have out there in MONTANA. :rolleyes:

Bet you have those sheep's peepers so fixed up, they can see you coming a mile away. http://slagpit.com/forums/images/smilies/sheephump.gif


BTW, is the welding advice covered under my Blue Cross health plan, or is there gonna be a co-pay?

Yup, I sure stepped in it when I posted to help OP sort out his problems. Never dreamed there were so many infantile welders. And, you've pretty much confirmed that you'll never have to worry about getting a brain tumor.

[Goodhand]

Don,

So, no photo?

[dabar39]

My God, you are worse than the Energizer Bunny, pull the plug, put it to rest and go to bed.